How many grains of FFFg will a 45 Colt hold?

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

I've got a 50 cal I want to try out today. I need a powder measure. How many grains of FFFg will a 45 Colt case hold?

 

I remember Dixie's catalog has a table in the back, but I gave my catalog away just before I got this rifle.

 

Thanks,

Possum

[Rio Brazos Kid]

I've got a 50 cal I want to try out today. I need a powder measure. How many grains of FFFg will a 45 Colt case hold?

 

I remember Dixie's catalog has a table in the back, but I gave my catalog away just before I got this rifle.

 

Thanks,

Possum

 

Where's your scale????????? Any attempt at loading/reloading should be verified by a quality scale. It's foolhardy to do so without one.

 

RBK

[Guest diablo slim shootist]

2.7 cc in a lee dipper-does that help?around 42 grains would be my guess

[SASS# 23321 Canelo Kid]

Possum Skinner,

 

ML's use "grains equivalent" volume, not actual "grains" as in smokeless. 50 grains on a scale is not 50 grains equiv. Buy a good BP measure for around $12-15. A good starting place is one grain equiv. for every caliber. You can increase the amount until you find the right charge for best accuracy and the charge will generally be under the recommended maximum for your rifle.

 

Have fun, safe trails,

CKid

[Silver Jack Hammer, SASS #56398]

Mike Ventrino says just fill it up. A slight compression insures there will no air gaps. Measure how deep the bullet seats in the case and fill the case with black powder slightly above said line. Black powder is easy to work with but air spaces can create detonation instead of what you what which is ignition. Use a drop tube of none plastic material. Just go to a hardware store and get a 30" tube and a metal funnel. Lube your bullets with SPG. Have fun. Repeat as necessary.

[Guest diablo slim shootist]

Mike Ventrino says just fill it up. A slight compression insures there will no air gaps. Measure how deep the bullet seats in the case and fill the case with black powder slightly above said line. Black powder is easy to work with but air spaces can create detonation instead of what you what which is ignition. Use a drop tube of none plastic material. Just go to a hardware store and get a 30" tube and a metal funnel. Lube your bullets with SPG. Have fun. Repeat as necessary.

Silver Jack you did not read the OP very close -Its a 50 cal rifle i believe

with your recomendation you would fill her up and blow ole Possum up!

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy

 

It depends. Don't you hate it when you ask a simple question and get a complicated answer?

 

It all depends on what brand of FFFg you are talking about. Not all brands weigh the same. In the interest of science, I went down stairs and dipped a Winchester 45 Colt case through the small amount of Goex FFFg that I have. I mostly use Schuetzen FFg these days. Anyhoo, in a not very scientific test, dipping the 45 case through a pile of Goex FFFg and scraping it off level and then weighing it, I came up with about 40.4 grains of Goex FFFg in a modern 45 Colt case. Your mileage may vary, depending on your technique.

 

Any reason you could not try the same thing?

 

Reading between the lines of your question I suspect you are talking about a muzzle loader, not a 50 cal cartridge gun. In which case, the usual advice of filling the case until the powder is compressed about 1/16" - 1/8" when the bullet is seated will not be of much help.

 

The other old rule of thumb for muzzle loaders and a round ball is to place the ball in the palm of your hand and pour enough powder into your hand to just cover the ball with powder. However if you are talking about one of them new fangled inline muzzle loaders and a modern sabot bullet, that won't tell you much.

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

Driftwood,

This is indeed a traditional side-lock muzzleloader.

 

Thank you all for your replies.

 

Possum

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

Driftwood,

This is indeed a traditional side-lock muzzleloader.

 

Thank you all for your replies.

 

Possum

Howdy Possum, figured you was using a muzzle loader. I just measured the same as DJ using Schuetzen fffg, carded off it weighed 40.5 grain. Good Luck

 

Jefro

[Dakota Rebel, SASS# 58412]

I have a Thompson/Center Hawkin .50. For a patched round ball, the table goes from 50-100 grains. 50 is a mild load. I use 85 for deer hunting.

 

I checked case capacity. A 45 Colt will hold 42 grains of FFFg, a 45-70 holds 80 grains.

[Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363]

A 45 Colt case has a volume capacity of 42 grains.

 

According to my Sam Fadala blackpowder book, that load will be plenty safe and should give you a muzzle velocity of around 900 fps.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Where's your scale????????? Any attempt at loading/reloading should be verified by a quality scale. It's foolhardy to do so without one.

 

BP is loaded by volume - not weight.

 

 

A 45 Colt case has a volume capacity of 42 grains.

 

According to my Sam Fadala blackpowder book, that load will be plenty safe and should give you a muzzle velocity of around 900 fps.

 

Ditto...

 

GG ~

[Rio Brazos Kid]

BP is loaded by volume - not weight.

 

 

Black is loaded by volume, when you are talking DRAMS. But when you start talking GRAINS, it's measured by weight.

 

It still can be thrown by volume, but to determine how many grains you are dipping/throwing, you WEIGH it.

 

RBK

[Fairshake]

Several of you have posted some very wrong information. Real BP loads by weight not volume. Rio B Kid Drams are a form of measured black powder loads that came from the loading of English Shotguns with Damascus steel barrels. When you see a box that says 3 dram equivalent that means that the hull is loaded to about the same as 3 drams of Real Black Powder. A dram is about 26 or 27 grains IIRC. IT IS A WEIGHED CHARGED OF BP!! Where do you load by volume people come from? What do you think that 44-40,38-40,45-70,40-65, 45-90, 45-110 all means? Why were they called this? Even the Buffalo hunters of old used brass cases that were cut and verified by a scale before they were used. Look at any old box of BP ammo and you will see This ammo is loaded with 27 grs of powder. This ammo is loaded with 40 grains of powder. There was NO SUCH THING AS LOAD BY VOLUME UNTIL THE ADVENT OF THE SUBS!!The reason for this was two fold. First the subs were of a different grain size than the real BP and second it was much more powerful as it was a blend of chemicals to imitate BP. Real BP burns from the outside in and it's a different form of energy than any of the subs.Pyrodex being the closest but it also produces a very hygroscopic chemical that produces rust faster than the real BP. Most all subs will say load by volume as maybe it only takes 75 grains of it to produce the same energy as 100 grains of BP. Read some history and quit believing what the writers of today print. Show me where it says that we loaded our rifles by volume before the first sub was produced. I am 63 and had never read nor heard the term until some arm chair expert said it. Now shooters who don't even fire BP will say you load by volume. I first shot BP in 1970 and the term was not used at that time.

[Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363]

Oh my, another riot in the making.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

BP is loaded by volume - not weight.

 

 

Black is loaded by volume, when you are talking DRAMS. But when you start talking GRAINS, it's measured by weight.

 

It still can be thrown by volume, but to determine how many grains you are dipping/throwing, you WEIGH it.

 

RBK

 

BP can be loaded by drams or grains in volume when using a powder measure in the field. I have never 'weighed' any BP charges and I have been muzzleloading and reloaded BP cartridge for many years. I guess I am not as scientific, but it works...from what I understand the calculated measurements are supposedly weighted measures, but since powders weigh different I just stick to the measurements on the powder charger. Oh well...

 

http://www.goexpowder.com/images/LoadChart...ifle-Musket.pdf

 

In the above chart 'powder charge measure setting' is for 'grains' not drams (but one could easily convert if desired)

 

GG ~

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

Oh my, another riot in the making.

Yup , we just went through this for the umptenth time over at CASCiity

BP Weight or Volume??

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Yup , we just went through this for the umptenth time over at CASCiity

BP Weight or Volume??

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

 

I'm educated now!

 

GG ~

[Yellowhouse Sam # 25171]

The "use volume" term arose with the advent of Pyrodex....its stuck with us ever since and created no end of confusion.

 

50 grs of 3f will make a fine target load.

[Guest diablo slim shootist]

A guy asks a simple question .... i think i had the right answer first

do i win the Cadillac! :blush:

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

A guy asks a simple question .... i think i had the right answer first

do i win the Cadillac! :o

..but if the posts didn't continue I wouldn't have gotten my education....

 

GG ~

[Guest diablo slim shootist]

Its not rocket science -if it was difficult my Dunb A$$ couldnt shoot the stuff!HAHA

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Its not rocket science -if it was difficult my Dunb A$$ couldnt shoot the stuff!HAHA

 

Here here..

 

GG ~

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

A 45 Colt case has a volume capacity of 42 grains.

 

Really? Did you measure it? I don't care what book you quote, if you didn't measure it yourself................I better not finish that statement.

 

I say again, not all Black Powder weighs the same. In my experience, and yes I have weighed them myself, the now defunct Elephant brand weighed more than Goex, which weighs more than Schuetzen. The only FFFg I have on hand right now is some Goex FFFg. I poured it into a 45 Colt case and leveled it off. Tried it several times. Averaged about 40.4 grains. If you make a blanket statement about how much Black Powder weighs, but do not qualify it with exactly what brand and granulation you are talking about, the information is not very meaningful.

 

As far as drams goes, a dram is 1/16 of an ounce, just as an ounce is 1/16 or a pound. Look it up. They are both avoirdupois measurements of weight, or mass to be more precise. If you do the math, a dram equals 27.34375 grains. At least that is how far the decimal points go on my calculator. The only reason drams was used for shotgun shells is because it is a more convenient number to use for large charges of powder than grains. But they are all measurements of weight.

 

I have been shooting Black Powder since 1968, so I beat you by two years Fairshake.

 

Yes, I am sure the factories that used to load 44-40, 45-70 and all probably did load it by volume. Volume was the only way that made sense for mass production. But that volume was based on how much the powder actually weighed.

 

When I load Black Powder, rather than getting balled up in how many grains of just which brand I keep it simple and use a true unit of volume, Cubic Centimeters. That is how my Lee dippers are marked. They have not yet gotten around to using the modern equivalent, milli liters. I usually just refer to how many grains it is by saying approx so many grains as a reference number only.

[Iron Pony]

Possum I dont have any 3F on hand but a Remington Peters, modern not baloon head case, just took 40 grains of 2F Swiss by my volumetric TC measure. I didnt use it as a scoop but poured it in frm a measuring pan, tapped the case a couple of times to get it to settle then poured it into the measure. When I was shooting the 50cal Penns rifle with a bbl set up for patched ball I used about twice that for target shooting. Using a minnie ball in the White Mtn carbine bbl for hunting I used more, wont say how much.

 

An old time front stuffer shooter told me they used to start like Driftwood said then add more powder and shoot over snow. When they got to the point there was unburned powder on the snow infront of the muzzle theyd back off a bit and call it quits.

 

If you cant find a guide for the rifle at the mfg website I'll eat my hat.

[John Boy]

... the now defunct Elephant brand weighed more than Goex, which weighs more than Schuetzen.

Driftwood, my friend, might want to check the numbers below. Put them in your references cause no one else has every published them

 

Density examples that I have determined from my BP inventory:

Wt Vendor Grain

90.2 Goex Cartridge

91.2 DuPont FFg

91.9 KIK FFFg

94.1 Goex Cowboy

90.5 Goex FFg

94.4 Goex FFFg

92.5 Goex FFFg

91.6 Goex FFFg ... all the Goex FFFg's are different lots

94.4 Meteor FFg

97 Meteor FFFg

97.2 Goex Express FFg

97.8 Schuetzen FFFg

99.2 KIK FFg

102.3 Swiss FFFg

102.6 DuPont Fg

102.7 Skirmish Fg

104.4 Swiss 1.5

104.9 Swiss FFg

100 gr volume pan weighed

 

Why? Goex uses maple for their charcoal. Schuetzen uses Alder Buckthorn, as does Swiss. Since KIK went out of business, Schuetzen and Swiss are the only 2 powders to use this quality wood

[Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363]

Driftwood - reference taken from here ... http://kwk.us/cases.html ... and his numbers are in agreement with other printed source material I have. Have no reason to think they are all acting in collusion to misinform the masses.

[Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363]

Gunner - Read the thread at CAS City. You're right - the annual debate where nobody and everybody is right.

 

Part of the problem is using the same name for units of volume and units of weight. The only thing on the planet where the two systems agree with the same number is when measuring water. And even that can get skewed depending on if you have a dished or humped meniscus.

 

I've not done any experiments with a BP volumetric measure, but I suspect that the graduations on them somewhat correspond to the aforementioned water grains. My BP measure leaks when water gets poured into it, so that's why I haven't tried.

 

It's just a stroke of luck that BP is sort of close to the density of water, or at least the sample used was when the first graduated measure was being calibrated. From there the seeds of confusion were sown.

[John Boy]

It's just a stroke of luck that BP is sort of close to the density of water, or at least the sample used was when the first graduated measure was being calibrated.

... and every vendor's bushings, dippers and kitchen table cut down brass cases made, then and today. I wouldn't consider Goex Cartridge 'sort of close' with a 10% difference and the other Goex's except for Express that range from a 5 to 10% difference. For example, a 40gr charge of CTG using a volume measure is 36grs weight. So folks that say they are loading 35grs using a dipper for a 45 Colt are really loading 31.5grs ... and don't have a clue they are wrong

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Gunner - Read the thread at CAS City. You're right - the annual debate where nobody and everybody is right.

 

Part of the problem is using the same name for units of volume and units of weight. The only thing on the planet where the two systems agree with the same number is when measuring water. And even that can get skewed depending on if you have a dished or humped meniscus.

 

I've not done any experiments with a BP volumetric measure, but I suspect that the graduations on them somewhat correspond to the aforementioned water grains. My BP measure leaks when water gets poured into it, so that's why I haven't tried.

 

It's just a stroke of luck that BP is sort of close to the density of water, or at least the sample used was when the first graduated measure was being calibrated. From there the seeds of confusion were sown.

 

Merry Christmas

 

GG ~

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Driftwood - reference taken from here ... http://kwk.us/cases.html ... and his numbers are in agreement with other printed source material I have. Have no reason to think they are all acting in collusion to misinform the masses.

 

My point was, how can one generalize the weight of powder that will fit into a case by measuring how much water it will hold, when different brands of powder clearly weigh different amounts?

 

I have several references in my loading notebook that I have kept over the years as I have used different brands of powders. For instance, my favorite load for both 45 Colt and 44-40 is 2.2CC of powder. When I actually weighed these volumes, I got the following weights:

 

2.2CC of Elephant FFg weighed 37.5 grains.

2.2CC of Goex FFg weighed 34.5 grains.

2.2CC of Schuetzen FFg weighed 33.5 grains.

 

Those are actual measurements that I took and recorded.

 

Likewise this morning I filled a 45 Colt case with Goex FFFg and weighed it. It came to 40.4 grains on average.

 

I know that I am splitting hairs, and perhaps I should stop doing so, but referring to a table someplace that says that a 45 Colt case will hold 42 grains of powder based on the volume of water completely misses the point that not all brands of Black Powder weigh the same. You cannot generalize how much a specific charge of powder weighs by comparing it to a volume of water.

 

Enough already.......I will attempt to stop harping on this in the future.

 

I think I just heard sleigh bells and I need to put out a glass of milk and some cookies.

 

Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night.

[Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363]

The point is that it's a volumetric measurement, expressed in grains. Ain't my doing that the same term is used for both weight and volume.

 

The convention is that BP is measured by volumetric grains. Possum's question was "How many grains will a 45 case hold?" Using the aforestated premises, the correct volumetric answer is 42.

 

Things go all to perdition when you start to figure in the volumetric density, where you have to consider how much some thing weighs when placed in a container of known size. Thankfully the folks at Lee have done all the homework for us ...

 

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=ca...PBc9CdsVHGyaW9g

 

And then one step further with their dipper chart to convert CC (a volume measurement) to grains by weight ...

 

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=ca...umWcwlEiF74I6ww

 

And even these need to be taken as ballpark figures, since they can't possibly take into account every variable like humidity, compression, and whatever else can skew the numbers.

 

So where does that leave your average BP shooter? Stay with convention and load by volume, or by weight instead and to figure out a new volume accordingly?

And then there's the sticky issue of the powder companies load recomendations (all in volume) and the writers like Fadala who also base their loads on volume.

I don't think anyone will get too far in telling them that they're doing it all wrong.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Again, you miss my point.

 

I ain't talking about differences in humidity. I am talking about different powders simply weigh different amounts. Period. All measured on the same day at the same time during the same amount of relative humidity.

 

Why is that so hard to understand?

 

As far as the Lee sliding scale is concerned, have you ever double checked any of their weights? I have, and a lot of them are off a pretty significant amount.

 

Again with the Volumetric Grains thing. It just does not exist. Period. At least not in any recognized scientific definition. Grains is a unit of weight, not volume.

 

How can you keep arguing for that elusive 42 number when I went down to the basement and actually made some measurements using real FFFg and a real scale? The man asked how many grains the case will hold. I filled a case and poured it out and weighed it. Just where does the imaginary Volumetric Grains enter into that discussion?

 

I am afraid we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

 

OK, Santa is getting impatient with me and wants to slide down the chimney. I am going to bed.

[Fireball #7709 Life]

Dang fella's.

 

Looked to me like Possum was just itching to try a new muzzleloader out and wanted a ballpark figure. 10-15% variation on a 40 grain measure isn't squat for loading BP in a muzzleloader that's in safe shooting condition.

[Guest diablo slim shootist]

I still want my Cadillac ....o well ill go look under the X-MAS tree.