Are we faster, or the same

[Colt McAllister]

The talent level keeps geting better, and younger and more dedicated. Nothing in the sport has changed as much as target distance and equipment, especially gun leather. It would really be cool to see the talent of today shoot lets say for example the 2000 EOT match. Same target array sizes and distance. To see just how much time the shooters have picked up.

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

A pure speculative question. I usually avoid these altogether as there's just no real answer to them. So here're my thoughts.

 

Take one of today's top shooters (like Bud or Spence or Chuckwalla or Ray or Deuce or etc.) and drop 'em back 10 years and no one would be close. Today's top shooters are undoubtedly faster. Techniques and training methods have come a long way since I started this game 10 years ago.

 

A lot of folks have spent a lot of time studying the movements required very closely. Techniques were adapted from other games and expanded upon. They've worked out the inefficient movements and pushed the boundaries of what the human body can do. That boundary moves farther and farther every time a hot new shooter comes up. The spirit of competition is alive and well.

 

Sure, the game has changed a little too, but not much in the past 10 years. Targets were pretty big then and fairly close. But frankly, any one of today's top shooters would excel even with small/far targets. In order to get to that level, fundamentals need to be sound. With sound fundamentals any target can be hit, and hit quickly, with confidence.

 

I would take a guess that the fastest stage runs have come down 30-40% in the last 10 years. The average shooter is about the same. So the spread is bigger. It's the nature of the beast. Those that practice and put in the time will get faster. Those that don't, won't.

 

Doc,

 

With the targets being closer and bigger and SASS Champions using smaller calibers guns with better more refined movement and shooting techniques, where do you think the future is headed for those who want to shoot even faster?

 

Do you think the future of SASS Champions will have to further refine movement and shooting techniques, demand less stage movement, maybe demand even closer bigger targets, or use even smaller calibers, or maybe seek sponsorships to pay for their time practicing?

 

Can you see a future Professional status ranking system for SASS Top Shooters?

 

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

The ultra competative shooter is not a recent development in this game. It's just more of a mainstream idea. Same rules pretty much apply at the upper level today as they did 10-15 years ago. You need to practice, you need reliable equipment, you need to be a smart shooter and also in the end you need the desire to be a better shooter. Saying that champions of today are champions because of caliber,gun mods and targets is insulting to all of our current champs that put the time and energy into this sport.

[Dang It Dan 13202]

Doc,

 

With the targets being closer and bigger and SASS Champions using smaller calibers guns with better more refined movement and shooting techniques, where do you think the future is headed for those who want to shoot even faster?

 

Do you think the future of SASS Champions will have to further refine movement and shooting techniques, demand less stage movement, maybe demand even closer bigger targets, or use even smaller calibers, or maybe seek sponsorships to pay for their time practicing?

 

Can you see a future Professional status ranking system for SASS Top Shooters?

 

 

I can't tell if you are really serious or not, but let's just say that you are. First there is NO MONEY in the cowboy game unless you sell something or train others (ex. Evil Roy, Long Hunter). Holy Terror, as good as she is, had to leave the cowboy game to make a living in the gun industry. So getting paid to do anything like practice is a pipe-dream.

 

Refining movement and shooting techniques is what champions do all the time, that's how they got there in the first place, and no one, not even a "champion" can "demand"bigger targets - I don't get that one.

 

There was a very brief discussion of an "open" catagory around 1999/2000 in which a shooter could be sponsored, could shoot any style depending upon the stage design (two handed, or gunfighter, whatever) and could openly use highly modified equipment and guns to maximize his performance. This idea went down like a lead zeplin. In fact that is when the "no professionals" mantra arose from Tex and others.

 

I am not saying that where we are now is the pinnacle of our abilities as shooters, but there is less and less room to improve.

 

Dang It

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Doc,

 

With the targets being closer and bigger and SASS Champions using smaller calibers guns with better more refined movement and shooting techniques, where do you think the future is headed for those who want to shoot even faster?

 

Do you think the future of SASS Champions will have to further refine movement and shooting techniques, demand less stage movement, maybe demand even closer bigger targets, or use even smaller calibers, or maybe seek sponsorships to pay for their time practicing?

 

Can you see a future Professional status ranking system for SASS Top Shooters?

 

 

 

I know you put your post in a form of a question so I'll answer one aspect of it.

If ANYONE thinks that smaller calibers equates to enough faster times to make you a champion or even the majical ingredient to attain some record class speed, then go on out and buy a set of .22 pistols and a coule boxes of ammo and make a video to share with us all that smaller calibers and light ammo gives championship results.

 

As Deuce so stated, the Champions in this game/sport have dedicated enormous time and energy to be the best. They do us all proud and represent SASS/CAS with great integrity.

 

..........Widder

[Doc Shapiro]

Doc,

 

With the targets being closer and bigger and SASS Champions using smaller calibers guns with better more refined movement and shooting techniques, where do you think the future is headed for those who want to shoot even faster?

 

Do you think the future of SASS Champions will have to further refine movement and shooting techniques, demand less stage movement, maybe demand even closer bigger targets, or use even smaller calibers, or maybe seek sponsorships to pay for their time practicing?

 

Can you see a future Professional status ranking system for SASS Top Shooters?

 

 

 

See Dang It Dan't response above. No, I don't see that at all.

 

Matter of fact, smaller calibers and less recoil is actually detrimental to reducing split times. I did some testing with Bud at the range after observing it at a different match. See an article here: http://www.jspublications.net/tips/LightLoadsMyth.html

[Marshal Harland Wolff, SASS #5019]

Matter of fact, smaller calibers and less recoil is actually detrimental to reducing split times. I did some testing with Bud at the range after observing it at a different match. See an article here: http://www.jspublications.net/tips/LightLoadsMyth.html

 

 

See...I've been tellin' people that shootin' .45s was faster!

 

HW

[Doc Shapiro]

Matter of fact, smaller calibers and less recoil is actually detrimental to reducing split times. I did some testing with Bud at the range after observing it at a different match. See an article here: http://www.jspublications.net/tips/LightLoadsMyth.html

 

 

 

See...I've been tellin' people that shootin' .45s was faster!

 

HW

 

 

Until the nerve damage in your wrists due to managing the recoil forces you to smaller calibers just so that you can keep shootin 1500 rounds a week in practice!

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

I can't tell if you are really serious or not, but let's just say that you are. First there is NO MONEY in the cowboy game unless you sell something or train others (ex. Evil Roy, Long Hunter). Holy Terror, as good as she is, had to leave the cowboy game to make a living in the gun industry. So getting paid to do anything like practice is a pipe-dream.

 

Refining movement and shooting techniques is what champions do all the time, that's how they got there in the first place, and no one, not even a "champion" can "demand"bigger targets - I don't get that one.

 

There was a very brief discussion of an "open" catagory around 1999/2000 in which a shooter could be sponsored, could shoot any style depending upon the stage design (two handed, or gunfighter, whatever) and could openly use highly modified equipment and guns to maximize his performance. This idea went down like a lead zeplin. In fact that is when the "no professionals" mantra arose from Tex and others.

 

I am not saying that where we are now is the pinnacle of our abilities as shooters, but there is less and less room to improve.

 

Dang It

 

I'm kind of curious why wouldn't my question to Doc be considerd "serious or not"?

 

You said, "I am not saying that where we are now is the pinnacle of our abilities as shooters, but there is less and less room to improve."

 

And I can't help but wonder if that's what was said 10 or 15 years ago?

 

Mike said,

 

"stages are simpler

targets are closer

targets are larger for the most part

caliber being shot by fast shooters are smaller and lighter"

 

Doc said,

 

"Take one of today's top shooters (like Bud or Spence or Chuckwalla or Ray or Deuce or etc.) and drop 'em back 10 years and no one would be close. Today's top shooters are undoubtedly faster. Techniques and training methods have come a long way ..."

 

This makes me ask where do folks think the future is headed for those who want to shoot even faster? And I gave some options that were put out by these folks above.

 

Will these be factors in the future?

 

You said that "there is NO MONEY in the cowboy game unless you sell something or train others (ex. Evil Roy, Long Hunter)." But how about the Endorsements in the Cowboy Chronicle? Aren't those people paid?

 

And what's so bad about making a "Professional Rank" for the speedsters? It seems that among the Top Shooters that there is an even smaller percentage who shoot even faster? Why can't there be a Professional ranking if these people are conducting themselves as Professional shooters with tricked out guns, refined almost robotic shooting techiques and what have you? What's wrong with aspiring to become a Professional SASS Shooter?

 

Why can't there be MONEY matches for professional SASS Shooters?

 

Bowling has Professionals, so does Golf, and even Rodeo, along with a number of other sports.

 

Some events like certain Golf courses are designed with the Professional in mind, why can't our Top Shooters demand that there be Professional grade ranges? It may benefit the Top Shooters in some why? Maybe some of these shooters can make a living at it?

 

You said that it was about 10 years ago that "the "no professionals" mantra arose from Tex and others." But if as Doc said that these are different times and SASS Shooters are much better than ever before, so why not now?

[Doc Shapiro]

Why can't there be MONEY matches for professional SASS Shooters?

 

There is a money match, it's called Western 3 Gun. The World Cup in August is just that.

 

SASS Inc. has no interest in professional shooting and I don't believe it will ever become part of the game. Some folks have a significant attitude shift when there is money involved. That attitude is anathema to what SASS promotes.

 

Additionally, for a money match, all targets have to be painted between shooters in order to accurately assess hits and misses. That will dramatically slow down a match.

 

It really is a different game when money comes into play.

 

And actually (at least from what I've heard and been offered), the only thing that most get from those advertisement promotions is some free gear.

 

I expect that if someone wanted to put together an invitational match, not run it under the auspices of SASS, they could. Entry fees would have to be high in order to cover the monetary awards, so that would significantly limit attendance.

 

Let me ask you a question now. Why do you think this is a good idea? What attracts you to the proposition?

[Guest Texas Jack Black]

I'm kind of curious why wouldn't my question to Doc be considerd "serious or not"?

 

You said, "I am not saying that where we are now is the pinnacle of our abilities as shooters, but there is less and less room to improve."

 

And I can't help but wonder if that's what was said 10 or 15 years ago?

 

Mike said,

 

"stages are simpler

targets are closer

targets are larger for the most part

caliber being shot by fast shooters are smaller and lighter"

 

Doc said,

 

"Take one of today's top shooters (like Bud or Spence or Chuckwalla or Ray or Deuce or etc.) and drop 'em back 10 years and no one would be close. Today's top shooters are undoubtedly faster. Techniques and training methods have come a long way ..."

 

This makes me ask where do folks think the future is headed for those who want to shoot even faster? And I gave some options that were put out by these folks above.

 

Will these be factors in the future?

 

You said that "there is NO MONEY in the cowboy game unless you sell something or train others (ex. Evil Roy, Long Hunter)." But how about the Endorsements in the Cowboy Chronicle? Aren't those people paid?

 

And what's so bad about making a "Professional Rank" for the speedsters? It seems that among the Top Shooters that there is an even smaller percentage who shoot even faster? Why can't there be a Professional ranking if these people are conducting themselves as Professional shooters with tricked out guns, refined almost robotic shooting techiques and what have you? What's wrong with aspiring to become a Professional SASS Shooter?

 

Why can't there be MONEY matches for professional SASS Shooters?

 

Bowling has Professionals, so does Golf, and even Rodeo, along with a number of other sports.

 

Some events like certain Golf courses are designed with the Professional in mind, why can't our Top Shooters demand that there be Professional grade ranges? It may benefit the Top Shooters in some why? Maybe some of these shooters can make a living at it?

 

You said that it was about 10 years ago that "the "no professionals" mantra arose from Tex and others." But if as Doc said that these are different times and SASS Shooters are much better than ever before, so why not now?

 

Would today's shooters really be faster if dropped back ten years ago?? For one thing back in the day you actually had to throw a knife ,shoot a bow , reload on the clock, kneel and shoot , The targets were not all in a line etc Who knows You be the judge. Today the matches are generic and sterile

 

T J B

[Red River Ray SASS#33254]

Today the matches are generic and sterile

 

T J B

 

 

An U no this how?

 

 

RRR

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

There is a money match, it's called Western 3 Gun. The World Cup in August is just that.

 

SASS Inc. has no interest in professional shooting and I don't believe it will ever become part of the game. Some folks have a significant attitude shift when there is money involved. That attitude is anathema to what SASS promotes.

 

Additionally, for a money match, all targets have to be painted between shooters in order to accurately assess hits and misses. That will dramatically slow down a match.

 

It really is a different game when money comes into play.

 

And actually (at least from what I've heard and been offered), the only thing that most get from those advertisement promotions is some free gear.

 

I expect that if someone wanted to put together an invitational match, not run it under the auspices of SASS, they could. Entry fees would have to be high in order to cover the monetary awards, so that would significantly limit attendance.

 

Let me ask you a question now. Why do you think this is a good idea? What attracts you to the proposition?

 

I don't know if it would be a good idea or not. I am curious if this is the direction that SASS is heading toward in the same ways that many other Sports found themselves heading in that direction at one time or another.

 

It seems that there are more Champions on the Wire then Average Shooters. Right or wrong, that's just my impression these days. And I was wondering why wouldn't these Top Shooters want to compete as Professionals against other Professionals?

 

Re-reading this thread, it shows many of the Top Shooters in SASS already conduct themselves as Professionals in some way or another. Example, I don't know if the Average SASS Shooter would spend the money and time on their shooting as much as the Top Shooters do.

 

I think most of the Top Shooters in SASS have had trigger jobs on their pistols, short stroked their rifles, practice hours on end, and of course work much much harder to refine their techniques and transtions a lot more than the Average SASS Shooter.

 

It also seems that Top Shooters are also more vocal and passionate about the targets remaining on the close and large end of the SASS recommended sizes and distances.

 

You said "Some folks have a significant attitude shift when there is money involved. That attitude is anathema to what SASS promotes." It may be, yet from what I have witnessed in discussions on the Wire and at the range, the attitude is already widespread. Many Top Shooters are very serious competitors who appear to have the attitude that winning is everything, and that in itself seems to conflict with what SASS promotes.

 

So as I asked before, why wouldn't a Professional Ranking be the direction that SASS is heading considering the evolution of the game since you first started?

 

And by the way, you said "Entry fees would have to be high in order to cover the monetary awards, so that would significantly limit attendance." But if the Top Shooters only shot against each other in a match of true competition where all were on an equal level, and of course they paid to be there to shoot against other top quality shooters, then maybe the Average or Slow Shooters wouldn't have to attend.

 

Maybe the evolution of the game is that where there are exclusive matches for Top Shooters and other matches for the rest?

 

It's all speculation.

 

[Red HayMaker]

I had the privileged of shooting with China Camp on a regular basis for the last few years before his passing. In my opinion, he was shooting at an increased level than when he won the World Championships. The sport had definitely changed. The equipment has changed, when he won the World Championships he was shooting a 92 and a double barrel. His pistols did not change but the loads did. His China Camp special load was a 158 grain bullet. I know he had not shoot a 158 grain bullet except for knockdown loads for the past several years. In talking with him, the targets were further out and smaller. The stages did have more movement, shooting in awkward/different positions, and yes non-shooting activities were on the clock. The equipment, target placement, and skill levels have changed.

 

When I began shooting in 2000, the game was changing and has changed. We were still doing non-shooting things on the clock. We were started in odd positions such as laying down. The rifle to have was the Marlin. '73s had not been short stroked. In fact, my first rifle was a 73 and I was shamed into getting a Marlin. We were for the most part shooting 125 grain bullets in 38 special in our pistols. Many people had switched from 45s to 38 special. I started out with a 97. Many of the top shooters were shooting doubles. My dear friend Smoke Parnell, God rest his soul, used to state that if you shot a match at 1 second per shot you were going to win or be at the top. that is not quite true now. As has been said, stage times were around 24 seconds then. And now, they are much faster depending on the stage.

 

Yes, the game has changed. The competition's getting younger and better.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

[/b]

 

I don't know if it would be a good idea or not. I am curious if this is the direction that SASS is heading toward in the same ways that many other Sports found themselves heading in that direction at one time or another.

 

It seems that there are more Champions on the Wire then Average Shooters. Right or wrong, that's just my impression these days. And I was wondering why wouldn't these Top Shooters want to compete as Professionals against other Professionals?

 

Re-reading this thread, it shows many of the Top Shooters in SASS already conduct themselves as Professionals in some way or another. Example, I don't know if the Average SASS Shooter would spend the money and time on their shooting as much as the Top Shooters do.

 

I think most of the Top Shooters in SASS have had trigger jobs on their pistols, short stroked their rifles, practice hours on end, and of course work much much harder to refine their techniques and transtions a lot more than the Average SASS Shooter.

 

It also seems that Top Shooters are also more vocal and passionate about the targets remaining on the close and large end of the SASS recommended sizes and distances.

 

You said "Some folks have a significant attitude shift when there is money involved. That attitude is anathema to what SASS promotes." It may be, yet from what I have witnessed in discussions on the Wire and at the range, the attitude is already widespread. Many Top Shooters are very serious competitors who appear to have the attitude that winning is everything, and that in itself seems to conflict with what SASS promotes.

 

So as I asked before, why wouldn't a Professional Ranking be the direction that SASS is heading considering the evolution of the game since you first started?

 

And by the way, you said "Entry fees would have to be high in order to cover the monetary awards, so that would significantly limit attendance." But if the Top Shooters only shot against each other in a match of true competition where all were on an equal level, and of course they paid to be there to shoot against other top quality shooters, then maybe the Average or Slow Shooters wouldn't have to attend.

 

Maybe the evolution of the game is that where there are exclusive matches for Top Shooters and other matches for the rest?

 

It's all speculation.

 

 

Wow. What a bunch of horse puckey.

 

Top Shooters have a win at all cost attitude. That's bull. Obviously you don't shoot with very many top shooters.

 

Top Shooters want only big and close. Again you are wrong. Target size and distance doesn't matter to the top shooters. They do understand though that it would adversely affect the other shooters so why change it.

 

Top Shooters want less movement. Again your lack of intelligence when it comes to the likes and dislikes of top shooters is showing.

 

While i'm sure there are a couple of fast guys that fit your concept I KNOW you are way off base for the vast majority. Just because a pard shoots fast doesn't mean they don't enjoy the camaraderie and the fun. If it wasn't fun then why do it?

 

Stan

 

Stan

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

[/b]

 

I don't know if it would be a good idea or not. I am curious if this is the direction that SASS is heading toward in the same ways that many other Sports found themselves heading in that direction at one time or another.

 

It seems that there are more Champions on the Wire then Average Shooters. Right or wrong, that's just my impression these days. And I was wondering why wouldn't these Top Shooters want to compete as Professionals against other Professionals?

 

Re-reading this thread, it shows many of the Top Shooters in SASS already conduct themselves as Professionals in some way or another. Example, I don't know if the Average SASS Shooter would spend the money and time on their shooting as much as the Top Shooters do.

 

I think most of the Top Shooters in SASS have had trigger jobs on their pistols, short stroked their rifles, practice hours on end, and of course work much much harder to refine their techniques and transtions a lot more than the Average SASS Shooter.

 

It also seems that Top Shooters are also more vocal and passionate about the targets remaining on the close and large end of the SASS recommended sizes and distances.

 

You said "Some folks have a significant attitude shift when there is money involved. That attitude is anathema to what SASS promotes." It may be, yet from what I have witnessed in discussions on the Wire and at the range, the attitude is already widespread. Many Top Shooters are very serious competitors who appear to have the attitude that winning is everything, and that in itself seems to conflict with what SASS promotes.

 

So as I asked before, why wouldn't a Professional Ranking be the direction that SASS is heading considering the evolution of the game since you first started?

 

And by the way, you said "Entry fees would have to be high in order to cover the monetary awards, so that would significantly limit attendance." But if the Top Shooters only shot against each other in a match of true competition where all were on an equal level, and of course they paid to be there to shoot against other top quality shooters, then maybe the Average or Slow Shooters wouldn't have to attend.

 

Maybe the evolution of the game is that where there are exclusive matches for Top Shooters and other matches for the rest?

 

It's all speculation.

 

 

Wow, did a top shooter not hug you enough when you got started or something. Your concept of top shooters does not fit the bill of anyone I know, and yup I travel a bit and know a lot of really good shooters. I will say this, I damn sure have never seen a top shooter tell somebody else how to have fun and that they are wrong in how they play the game. In the end like most men in sports jelousy and envy play a big part of why some people don't like others who have found a way to be successful. Also the game has not changed since you have joined, so when you started were you under the impression that it was something else. Around here we shoot at lots of different targets depending on what club you go to, we have a lot of fun and have lots of movement in our stages. And I never here this kinda bs at a match. which I'm thankful for.

[Anvil Al #59168]

I would answer yes and most of the reasons, of which I agree, have been touched on but for one. Doc S sort of mentioned it when he said training methods. Let us not forget the many schools, DVDs, and books (Doc's, Bounty Hunter's, etc) that have been offered over the last 10-12 years. As for schools, besides Evil Roy of course, there have been numerous more such as Handlebar Doc, Longhunter, T-Bone Dooley, Nuttin Graceful, and so on. Here another key to the faster times other than the actual pulling the trigger has been the teaching of smoother, quicker transitions to lots of eager to learn shooters. Not only are the top shooters maybe a little faster but now I believe we have more competitors that we would class as top shooters and capable of becoming the new champ on "that given day" (more competitors to fear and they are a boble away from getting you). As Reb mentioned, just being a fast shooter today might get you in top ten but not the upper crust as it would have ten years ago. Competion is stiff in most every category- mens, ladies, smokeless, & black powder. As has been said--faster stages with close & bigger targets is certainly a big part of the new faster times, as is more practice in shooting for more competitors than in the past, certainly more work on transitions has been time shaving, and like Dan mentioned maybe a little credit to better equipment. Better, safer staging perhaps has tweeked times some. The one thing that interfears with more than a few of US is we are just getting older. Seems I'm not moving quite as fast from A to B any more, hopefully when I get to B position (and it is the correct position avoiding a P), I shoot a tad faster and smoother than 10 years ago so that someone might say, "Gee he shoots faster than he did back in 2000". (If we remember how we shot in 2000.)

 

Happy Thanksgiving!!

 

 

Yep. More training, and better training available, to more shooters than in 81.

More members which add to the number of good shooters available than in 81.

More clubs to shoot at each week. Which gives more shooters trigger time than in 81.

 

If we could look back in time and see the transitions of shooters back in 81.

Bet there was only a few that made really good transitions back then. And those would be the top shooters.

Now???? Those are taught be many folks across the country. And you see LOTS of folks working and doing

great transitions. Which is the fastest way to shave time.

 

But heck. What game or sport really stays the same.

Football??? Basketball???? All are played faster then 30 years ago.

 

Target distance and size??? That will effect mid to lower level shooter WAY more than any top shooter.

And those are the ones that really pay the clubs bills. So you need to make sure they are having a good time.

Not the top shooters.

 

Movement??? Most all the top shooters I know. And I get to shoot with a few. Love movement.

So don't have a clue where the saying. Top shooters like S&D stages comes from.

That is sure not what I see. Most really like movement.

[Doc Shapiro]

PC, based on your post above, I'd venture to say that you don't shoot with very many top shooters. The only one I know of in this area is Bud (and he's down in San Diego now for school). There are some other exceptional shooters (such as Wildroot). But the shooters I can think of don't exhibit any of this behavior that you are claiming they have.

 

There are some top shooters that participate here on the Wire, and they don't exhibit the opinions that you have assigned to them either. Perhaps you aren't sure who they are? Stan, Deuce, Colt, Dang it Dan, Ray have jumped in, and they are true champions.

 

The opinion that (to a point) big/close is favorable for a SASS match is based on conversations had with Match Directors and other shooters. Big/Close matches are much more popular and heavily attended than the small/far type of matches. There is data to support it rather than an opinion.

 

Trigger jobs? Short strokes? Are you kidding? Many average shooters have this work done too! Gunsmiths would never stay in business if they were only working on the guns of the very few "top guns" in the game.

 

You also don't seem to understand where the mythical "money" for paid shooters comes from or how much money the very few "professional" shooters make. I think I can count on 3 hands the names of actual, full time, professional shooters in the industry. And none of them are making a fortune. And their career as a professional shooter ends when they stop winning. It's a precarious existence.

 

The money comes from advertising. Advertising in gun magazines mostly. The companies that advertise, by and large, are fairly small in the scheme of things. They don't have much money to spend on sponsorships. As a result, most of the "professional" shooters that you've probably heard of (and haven't heard of) also have a day job to make ends meet. Most of them have to cover their own match fees, and what they get from sponsors is product, not cash. The product is often sold for cash, or used if a consumable (reloading components). A lot of times, in exchange for a picture in an ad for a bullet co (as an example), the shooter may just get 1000 bullets. That's about enough for a week or two of practice.

 

I think your entire view of the way sponsorships actually work is skewed and extremely overestimated.

 

Perhaps it's time for you to rethink your thoughts on this?

[Madd Mike #8595]

The ultra competative shooter is not a recent development in this game.

 

Saying that champions of today are champions because of caliber,gun mods and targets is insulting to all of our current champs that put the time and energy into this sport.

 

I am not sure that is what is being said

geeeese

 

every SASS champion in any----- year of lets say (EOT)

.........................................................has...................

worked hard to achieve that goal???????

arrrrrg

 

they are king of the hill

and the hill changes shapes like dumont dunes, and the competitiors adapt as well, even none ultra competative shooters too

http://www.dumontdunes.net/dumont_info.html

 

my point is

top shooters work to get there, no matter the era of SASS

[Colt McCloud, SASS #65003L]

Very interesting post and with some comments made that verify the benefit of some "changes" going on in the last few years. I have been in this shooting game now for just over 5 years. Being that recent, I was lucky to have tutoring from a couple of local good shooters that taught me the right way in regards to types of guns, transitions, staging and shooting smart. I've also had the fortune to speak with and e-mail several of the people that have added to this post and learned a great deal from their knowledge and experience. As a result I have gone from the bottom of the list to near the top and locally winning my share of matches. I have traveled to the US and done well there moving up the list over the last 2 years and the highlight for me this year was 2nd place in category and 9th overall at a State match. Now I'm not blowing my horn but rather demonstrating that in todays world with lots of proper coaching, DVDs and written material anyone willing to put in time practicing and willing to improve can do so. I have a good friend that started this game just 3 years ago and he right on my heels!

 

 

I can also say I have been fortunate to get advice and direction from top shooters, again, some that have posted here and I have not seen a "win at all cost" attitude. On the contrary, they are the first to offer advice and to help you improve.

 

EDIT: And the point I was trying to make was around here there are at least a half dozen of us "good shooters" that can step up and top the list on any given day! All for the reasons posted on this thread. Proper equipment, coaching and most of all dedication and practice!

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

[/b]

 

I don't know if it would be a good idea or not. I am curious if this is the direction that SASS is heading toward in the same ways that many other Sports found themselves heading in that direction at one time or another.

 

It seems that there are more Champions on the Wire then Average Shooters. Right or wrong, that's just my impression these days. And I was wondering why wouldn't these Top Shooters want to compete as Professionals against other Professionals?

 

Don't know how you draw that conclusion. If you look at a list of the last 10 EOT champions as one definition of Champions, then I think you will find they rarely post on the Wire.

 

Re-reading this thread, it shows many of the Top Shooters in SASS already conduct themselves as Professionals in some way or another. Example, I don't know if the Average SASS Shooter would spend the money and time on their shooting as much as the Top Shooters do.

 

How do you draw that conclusion? About the only place Top Shooters may spend more time and money is practice. Not everyone that practices is a Top Shooter.

 

I think most of the Top Shooters in SASS have had trigger jobs on their pistols, short stroked their rifles, practice hours on end, and of course work much much harder to refine their techniques and transtions a lot more than the Average SASS Shooter.

 

Based on the number of short stroke kits sold each year there sure must be a whole lot of Top Shooters in the sport.

 

It also seems that Top Shooters are also more vocal and passionate about the targets remaining on the close and large end of the SASS recommended sizes and distances.

 

Just how many so called Top Shooters have been vocal and passionate on targets remaining close and large on the Wire lately? Who are they?

 

You said "Some folks have a significant attitude shift when there is money involved. That attitude is anathema to what SASS promotes." It may be, yet from what I have witnessed in discussions on the Wire and at the range, the attitude is already widespread. Many Top Shooters are very serious competitors who appear to have the attitude that winning is everything, and that in itself seems to conflict with what SASS promotes.

 

My experience is that the best shooters in our sport have an excellent attitude, helping other shooters, doing posse duties above the call of duty, teaching, loaning guns to new shooters, etc. They have an attitude alright, one that truly demonstrates the spirit of our game.

 

So as I asked before, why wouldn't a Professional Ranking be the direction that SASS is heading considering the evolution of the game since you first started?

 

Because the rules state other wise and the Wild Bunch has made it clear this sport will never allow money for winning. Heck they even stopped pot shoots on side match days.

 

And by the way, you said "Entry fees would have to be high in order to cover the monetary awards, so that would significantly limit attendance." But if the Top Shooters only shot against each other in a match of true competition where all were on an equal level, and of course they paid to be there to shoot against other top quality shooters, then maybe the Average or Slow Shooters wouldn't have to attend.

 

Dream on, it will never happen. If shooters want monetary awards, then they can shoot W3G or something else.

 

Maybe the evolution of the game is that where there are exclusive matches for Top Shooters and other matches for the rest?

 

These exist today, they are called top gun shoot offs at many major matches on the last day. In order to qualify, you have to finish high in the standings. The only thing you win is bragging rights and not much else.

 

It's all speculation.

 

[Blackjack Zak]

The top shooters are good at what they do because they.......you guessed it...........PRACTICE! I think most of us have action jobs on our firearms to some degree or another....so that is not unique to the top shooter.

 

They work hard to get to where they are, and deserve every award and buckle they get. Some shooters get enjoyment out of being good at what they do.....they get a personal satisfaction at doing something well! (And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, I think MOST people enjoy being good at something)

 

I have found all the top shooters I know to be gracious, helpful and very, very down-to-earth! IMHO

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

PC, based on your post above, I'd venture to say that you don't shoot with very many top shooters. The only one I know of in this area is Bud (and he's down in San Diego now for school). There are some other exceptional shooters (such as Wildroot). But the shooters I can think of don't exhibit any of this behavior that you are claiming they have.

 

There are some top shooters that participate here on the Wire, and they don't exhibit the opinions that you have assigned to them either. Perhaps you aren't sure who they are? Stan, Deuce, Colt, Dang it Dan, Ray have jumped in, and they are true champions.

 

The opinion that (to a point) big/close is favorable for a SASS match is based on conversations had with Match Directors and other shooters. Big/Close matches are much more popular and heavily attended than the small/far type of matches. There is data to support it rather than an opinion.

 

Trigger jobs? Short strokes? Are you kidding? Many average shooters have this work done too! Gunsmiths would never stay in business if they were only working on the guns of the very few "top guns" in the game.

 

You also don't seem to understand where the mythical "money" for paid shooters comes from or how much money the very few "professional" shooters make. I think I can count on 3 hands the names of actual, full time, professional shooters in the industry. And none of them are making a fortune. And their career as a professional shooter ends when they stop winning. It's a precarious existence.

 

The money comes from advertising. Advertising in gun magazines mostly. The companies that advertise, by and large, are fairly small in the scheme of things. They don't have much money to spend on sponsorships. As a result, most of the "professional" shooters that you've probably heard of (and haven't heard of) also have a day job to make ends meet. Most of them have to cover their own match fees, and what they get from sponsors is product, not cash. The product is often sold for cash, or used if a consumable (reloading components). A lot of times, in exchange for a picture in an ad for a bullet co (as an example), the shooter may just get 1000 bullets. That's about enough for a week or two of practice.

 

I think your entire view of the way sponsorships actually work is skewed and extremely overestimated.

 

Perhaps it's time for you to rethink your thoughts on this?

 

Doc,

 

I think there might be a difference in what you and I consider Top Shoots or Fast Shooter. I consider you and many others in Ione as Fast Shooters.

 

The Top Shooters in SASS as a whole? I would think that your standard is very different than mine. To me, 25 to 35 a stage is quick. But honestly I have no idea how fast the top Top Shooters are shooting. And if there is a tiny percentage then I wouldn't try to guess who they all are, or how many there are.

 

After reading all of the replies to a question about a Professional Ranking System of some sort, I guess I did overestimate where SASS fast guns are headed.

 

The topic of the OP is are Top Shooters today faster than those of years ago, and I agreed with others that they are for many reasons that you and others have stated.

 

All I was asking you is if whether or not that do you think that a Professional Ranking System of some sort would be the NEXT step in the evolution of the Fast Guns in your opinion.

 

Everyone seems to agree that refined techniques, more hours of practice, enhanced equipment including all sorts of better gear, target size and location, and of course hard work have made today's fast shooters better than they were yesterday.

 

Since a Professional status of some sort is out of the question, what do you think the future holds? Do you think years from now there will be shooters who will be faster than the fast guys are now?

 

Semper Fi!

 

PC

 

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

Until the nerve damage in your wrists due to managing the recoil forces you to smaller calibers just so that you can keep shootin 1500 rounds a week in practice!

 

Doc,

 

1500 rounds a week? That's 78,000 rounds a year.

 

Who practices like that, nevertheless can afford it?

[Anvil Al #59168]

The Top Shooters in SASS as a whole? I would think that your standard is very different than mine. To me, 25 to 35 a stage is quick. But honestly I have no idea how fast the top Top Shooters are shooting. And if there is a tiny percentage then I wouldn't try to guess who they all are, or how many there are.

 

 

25-35 a stage is not a top shooter.

That is closer to average. But that is a big range from 25-35

 

Most my stage times are around 22 on a good one, to around 27.

If in the 30's then I normally had a miss in there with it.

And around here. I am average at best.

 

Take a stage that I shoot good, and around 22-24 clean.

A top shooter will do it in 18 or better.

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

Wow. What a bunch of horse puckey.

 

Top Shooters have a win at all cost attitude. That's bull. Obviously you don't shoot with very many top shooters.

 

Top Shooters want only big and close. Again you are wrong. Target size and distance doesn't matter to the top shooters. They do understand though that it would adversely affect the other shooters so why change it.

 

Top Shooters want less movement. Again your lack of intelligence when it comes to the likes and dislikes of top shooters is showing.

 

While i'm sure there are a couple of fast guys that fit your concept I KNOW you are way off base for the vast majority. Just because a pard shoots fast doesn't mean they don't enjoy the camaraderie and the fun. If it wasn't fun then why do it?

 

Stan

 

Stan

 

Stan,

 

If you read the whole thread to try to find if I was the first one to suggest that enhanced equipment, smaller calibers, and big close targets was all a part of the reason that fast shooters are shooting faster, you'll be disappointed to find out that I wasn't.

 

You will in fact find out that I wasn't. I was only agreeing with others that those factors might be all PARTS of the reason.

 

You want proof? Re-read Post #8, #9, #16, #17, #24, #25, #31, #36, and even #38 where that poster talks about "the ultra competative shooter".

 

I never said the Top Shooters were the ONLY ones doing these things. I agreed that Top Shooters were doing these things to help them be even faster.

 

You said, "Just because a pard shoots fast doesn't mean they don't enjoy the camaraderie and the fun. If it wasn't fun then why do it?"

 

I don't know anyone in SASS who doesn't enjoy the camaraderie and the fun. But I'll never forget during a discussion on the Wire once, how a Top Shooter once told me that there were different kinds of fun. He said that some Top Shooters look at the intensity of competition as fun.

 

I can only take his word for it because when I was competeing on my unit's pistol team in Camp Pendleton some 35 years ago competition wasn't fun ... it was War and winning was everything.

 

Not at ALL COST, that's Bullspit, BUT it was an attitude that put us into an "ultra competative" mindset.

 

[Guest Texas Jack Black]

So, the top shooters are faster BUT !!! the targets are bigger ,the loads are lighter, targets are closer, many other things are now not done on the clock. interesting conclusion and recoil is your friend.

 

 

T J B

 

 

T J B

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

25-35 a stage is not a top shooter.

That is closer to average. But that is a big range from 25-35

 

Most my stage times are around 22 on a good one, to around 27.

If in the 30's then I normally had a miss in there with it.

And around here. I am average at best.

 

Take a stage that I shoot good, and around 22-24 clean.

A top shooter will do it in 18 or better.

 

 

Al,

 

I've seen guys shoot in the low 20s. But I guess my problem is that I never really pay attention to the scores to have a real good idea of how fast Fast Shooters are shooting.

 

I would think that if you're shooting like you are then you are not just an average shooter. I would definitly think you're on the high end of the competition.

 

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

So, the top shooters are faster BUT !!! the targets are bigger ,the loads are lighter, targets are closer, many other things are now not done on the clock. interesting conclusion and recoil is your friend.

 

 

T J B

 

 

T J B

 

 

TJB,

 

I see your point, but to me that's the way life is. People always try to compare apples and oranges.

 

I remember in the Corps it was people comparing marksmanship, combat abilities, and whatever else.

 

They were comparing team shooting stats from the 1970s when everyone was shooting 1911s and everyone shot one handed to stats from the late 1980s when everyone changed over to 9mm Berettas and everyone used the two handed Weaver Stance.

 

It was apples and oranges.

 

[Doc Shapiro]

Doc,

 

1500 rounds a week? That's 78,000 rounds a year.

 

Who practices like that, nevertheless can afford it?

 

I did, for 3 or 4 years straight. 45's for 3 of those years until nerve damage ended it then I switched to 38's. I know some shooters that'll shoot 10,000 rounds or more the week before a major match just for a tune up.

 

That's really what it takes. Not to mention the hours and hours of dry fire time every week. The guys that get to the top do it because they really love the game. They enjoy the shooting, the guns, the competition, and especially the people. If they didn't love the game, they'd find something else to do.

 

There is a joke that goes around. "Want to become an instant top shooter? It's not so hard. Go shoot half a million rounds and then come see me for some refinement and coaching on the mental aspects." While that sounds like a lot, it's not so far off the truth.

 

Oh, I'm a tolerably good shooter (but thanks for the compliment). My stage times when I'm on it run around 18 or so for a 10/10/4 with some movement. The real top shooters will be 4 or 5 seconds a stage faster. I came to realize that while I could maybe get there, the amount of work and dedication wasn't worth it - for me anyway.

 

In 10 years I expect that the bar will be raised by some kid that's not too far out of diapers right now.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Maybe thats where all this top shooter discussion comes into play.

Perhaps we need to define terms?

 

10-10-4 with some movement under 25 means pretty fast - not a top shooter (but perhaps {depending on his local group} a threat to win at his monthlies

10-10-4 with some movement under 20 means fast - not a top shooter (but perhaps {depending on his area} a threat to win his state or place well overall)

 

10-10-4 with some movement under 15 is STINKIN' FAST - and you are on the edge of top shooter range.

 

There are 1000's in the first couple of groups all across the world - all with differing opinions, ideas and directions.

 

As you progress into the third grouping - the numbers shrink quickly.

And with every second under 14 - 13 - 12 - that groups shrinks even more until you have a handful of TOP shooters.

 

A quickie definition which is crude but works for me...

If you could tell someone knowledgable about CAS that someone won EOT or WR and they would not be surprised.

Likely that name is a TOP shooter.

 

Creeker will never be on that list.

[Grizzly Adams 3674]

And of course, that brought up the question of whether our speeds are getting faster, or are they staying about the same as they always have been. Im talking about our shooting speeds from the beginning of SASS to now. Personnally I dont see how the top shooters can get much faster.

 

Oh sure, ask a trick question!

 

If serious, the answer is yes, and you can look for the top shooters to get faster.

[Kid Shane, SASS #40660]

OK there is one other cowboy sport that pays prize money, the World Fast Draw Association.

 

WFDA

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

Maybe thats where all this top shooter discussion comes into play.

Perhaps we need to define terms?

 

10-10-4 with some movement under 25 means pretty fast - not a top shooter (but perhaps {depending on his local group} a threat to win at his monthlies

10-10-4 with some movement under 20 means fast - not a top shooter (but perhaps {depending on his area} a threat to win his state or place well overall)

 

10-10-4 with some movement under 15 is STINKIN' FAST - and you are on the edge of top shooter range.

 

There are 1000's in the first couple of groups all across the world - all with differing opinions, ideas and directions.

 

As you progress into the third grouping - the numbers shrink quickly.

And with every second under 14 - 13 - 12 - that groups shrinks even more until you have a handful of TOP shooters.

 

A quickie definition which is crude but works for me...

If you could tell someone knowledgable about CAS that someone won EOT or WR and they would not be surprised.

Likely that name is a TOP shooter.

 

Creeker will never be on that list.

 

Thanks Creeker, I agree and understand what you're talking about.

 

I never really knew that there are people in SASS that could pull off a 15 second 10-10-4 stage. That definitly would be a FAST GUN!

 

Semper Fi!