Black Powder Shotgun Loads

[Sedalia Dave]

5 hours ago, Krazy Kajun said:

When I first started out shooting BP I too loaded my powder from my Mec 600 Jr.  I drove 285 miles down to Valdosta GA for an annual match there, spent the night in a hotel and "tried" to shoot the match. About a third of my shotgun shells had varying amounts of powder in them...you just never knew how little or much the "boom" would be.  VERY frustrating.  Got back and tore down the shotshells I had left over and found differing amounts of powder in them.  What I didn't know then but what I know now is the BP will clump or bridge if you don't pour it out into something first and break up any of the clumps.  So now I just use the Lee dippers and each and every shotshell has the correct amount of powder in it, every time.

 

Kajun (what dips his BP)

 

I have a coarse screen in the bottom of the funnel I use for powder. It does a great job of catching clumps and those little desiccant packs.

 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

@Krazy Kajun is that real BP that clumps on you?  I know APP clumps but never had a problem with BP.

 

Okay, so here's what I've done since I started.  This was a "standard" BP load for a lot of guys.  AA or STS hull, 4.3cc dipper of FFg BP (approx. 60 gr by weight or volume), red Winchester wad (no longer made so Claybuster CB1138-12), 1 oz shot.  Went up to 1 1/8 oz shot for a while, now back to 1 oz,  I've used FFFg when I had more of it, not much difference.  What I actually prefer if I have it is Fg or Reenactor BP just for more flame.  I know I could use less powder but why?  These are not at all uncomfortable to shoot.  If I was using APP I would just use the same amount.  I use a Lee Loadall for everything except the powder, that I dip.

 

Cleanup?  I know a couple guys who shoot some smokeless through them afterwards, but if you shoot every weekend that's 4 boxes of shotgun ammo wasted per year .  My Baikals and TTNs have chrome lined bores, I think, so that maybe helps, but pretty much anything wet gets them clean.  At one time I'd take the barrels outside and spray the garden hose through them for a few seconds.  These days when I shoot BP I spray in the bores and cylinders of my guns with Ballistol and then clean them "whenever".  For the shotgun, that is anything wet but mostly moosemilk ballistol/water mix, spray the bores and lay the barrels across the trashcan that is sitting on top of newspapers for drippage from the ends.  Rotate it a couple times while cleaning another gun.  Push the paper towel wad through, repeat if any left.  It ain't broke, so I ain't fixing it.

 

Oh yeah, in brass hulls same load except an 11ga overpowder nitro card between powder and red wad to get the required pressure seal, and 11 or 10ga overshot. 

 

Long ago somebody, I think Strawberry Lars, said that old shotguns work better with fiber wads , and newer shotguns with longer forcing cones pattern better with plastic.  At CAS distances it isn't going to matter.

[Blackwater 53393]

Since we’ve gotten around to real Black Powder loading and touched on brass shotgun shells, I will go on and throw my dos pesos in.

 

WARNING!! This may be a little long winded for some of you!

 

 I normally only use FFFg powder and I’m not real picky about the brand.  I normally use #7 shot for CAS loads, but I keep a stash of #5 shot for some places where I’ve found KDs that tend to be stubborn about going down.

 

I load five different Black Powder loads. I load a 2 5/8” 12ga plastic or paper shell for my original Winchester 1893 pump shotguns.  I am forbidden from shooting them in SASS sanctioned matches because of rules that I don’t agree with, but abide by.  There ARE places where these, as well as other period pump shotguns are allowed.  These are either original Fiochi 2 5/8” shells or cut down AAs. I use 45gr of FFFg, 12ga nitro over powder card, 12ga fiber wads to make my crimp work with 7/8oz of shot. I used to roll crimp the AAs, using a 12ga paper over shot card, but recently I have started using a clear plastic over shot “card” and I do a folded crimp that leaves the finished shell the same length as a normal 2 3/4” 12ga shell. This makes the shells fit in a regular 25 round box without rattling around.

 

My standard plastic Black Powder 12ga shell is a AA with 55gr of FFFg, the same 12ga nitro card, 12ga fiber wads, and an full ounce of shot. The wad thickness is adjusted to make the proper column to produce a good folded crimp.

 

For the 10ga plastic shells, I use 65gr of FFFg, a 10ga nitro over powder card, the appropriate 10ga fiber wads to produce a good column with 1.125 oz of shot and a 10ga paper over shot card.  I’ve used the same 150 Federal brown plastic shells for several years, trimming the damaged crimps when necessary and roll crimping them. Most of them have been trimmed a couple of times and are now 2 5/8 to 2 3/4” in length as opposed to the original 2 7/8” shell and I’m down to about a hundred or so.

 

For the 12ga brass shells, I use 60gr of FFFg, an 11ga nitro card, the appropriate combination of 11ga fiber wads to produce a good column with an ounce of shot, (I have two different lengths of brass shells and three different sizes of primers are used) and an 11ga paper over shot card. These are roll crimped in a CH4D roll crimp die set in an RCBS Rock Chucker II.

 

The 10ga brass shells are my “Shock and Awe” rounds!  There are two different lengths of these as well and there are shells that use three different primers too! I use 120gr of FFFg, a 9ga nitro card, again, the appropriate stack of 9ga fiber wads, an ounce and a half of shot, and a 9ga paper over shot card. These too are roll crimped in a CH4D die on the Rock Chucker.

 

All of my powder drops are performed with an RCBS Uniflo powder dispenser and every one is weighed on a Hornady electronic scale.

 

I use the 60gr setting on the powder measure for both sizes of brass shell, dropping one charge in the 12ga shells and two in the 10s

 

I use my Lee Load All II to prime the plastic shells and the brass shells that take 209 primers and the 57/157 primers in the antique Alcan/Fiochi ten and 12ga shells. I also use the Load All to deprime the 12ga shells that use either of the larger primers. I have adaptive tools to deprime the 10ga shells using the Load All as well.  For those brass shells that use large pistol primers, I have hand held punches and a fixture for depriming and I use the RCBS primer station with the appropriate shell holder to prime them.

 

I also have a CH4D sizing and depriming die for 12ga brass shells, but it’s extremely hard to use and I only employ it when I have a shell that is bent or dented.  When I get some time in the shop with a vise and a hone, I plan to slightly enlarge the inside of that die and polish it thoroughly. None of my shotguns need shells sized as small as that die makes them.

 

All of these loads have been thoroughly and extensively tested and have proven safe for me to use in the appropriate guns.  I have confidence in these combinations, but I in no way make any claim as to their safety in anyone else’s guns under any circumstances!

 

If you use this information, you do so at your own risk!!

 

(how’s that for a lawyer speak disclaimer?)

 

 

Edited August 30 by Blackwater 53393

[Uriah, SASS # 53822]

11 hours ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

I’ve used the same 150 Federal brown plastic shells for several years, trimming the damaged crimps when necessary and roll crimping them.

Blackwater,

 

10ga- How do you get them to not burn through?

 

Uriah

Edited August 29 by Uriah, SASS # 53822
Through

[Blackwater 53393]

23 hours ago, Uriah, SASS # 53822 said:

Blackwater,

 

10ga- How do you get them to not burn though?

 

Uriah

First of all, those Federal brown hulls are pretty thick. I trim the burnt edges off with a tool made to cut them uniformly, so they get a little shorter every couple of times that they’re reloaded. I have a skiving tool that straightens the mouths of those not too badly burned. By carefully trimming off only what needs removing and counting the fact that I only shoot them occasionally, they’ve gone from a little over 3” in overall open length to about 2 3/4” in the five or six times they’ve been fired.

 

I don’t think that I’ve ever shot more than one whole match using only the 10ga shotguns.  I shot the Ohio state match with just my Remington double, but most of the time I only shoot a stage or two and use a 12ga for the rest of the match.

 

And like I said, I’m down to about a hundred of ‘em and they’re between 2 1/2 and 2 5/8 long now.  
 

EDIT: I also use the brass shells a lot and they don’t burn/melt at all. 

Edited August 30 by Blackwater 53393

[Chantry]

7 hours ago, Uriah, SASS # 53822 said:

Blackwater,

 

10ga- How do you get them to not burn through?

 

Uriah

 

I started with Remington plastic hulls in my 10 gauge.  The short version is sooner or later you will get some burn through spots.  Since 10 gauge hulls are not cheap and are hard to find, I kept using the hulls even with the holes in them as long as they weren't leaking powder or shot.

 

While I still have some plastic hulls for the 10 gauge, most of those have been cut down over the years when the hull mouths got too rough to roll crimp.  They now get used with my my pre-1900 shotguns with lighter loads (65 grs) of BP.

 

Over the years I have accumulated enough brass hulls*  to shoot a 10 stage annual match with my modern 10 gauge.

 

*A mix of new and used Rocky Mountain Cartridge hulls and some "antique" hulls that used the #57 Remington primers.  Large pistol primers are close enough in size to the #57 that I've used them for years without any problems.  Antique hulls can be found at gun shows or sometimes online.  I've run across a few that seem similar to Berdan primed cases, so make sure to check the flash holes in the hull.

[Todd Hayseed]

On 8/27/2024 at 5:44 AM, Old Man Graybeard said:

I have been using Fiocci cases  with the crimp trimmed off. A 1 oz. dipper of powder...nitro card...1/2 inch cushion wad...1oz. dipper of shot...over shot card and roll crimp them on a drill press. I am using 2F APP powder. Been working well and nobody has said that I am having any trouble making smoke factor

I have all the tools and the components inbound to load just like this.  Happy to hear that it works, I was not sure.

 

I thought the higher burn temperature of Black Powder and APP would actually melt or burn a one piece plastic wad.  Seems it does not!

[Todd Hayseed]

On 8/27/2024 at 5:27 PM, Krazy Kajun said:

When I first started out shooting BP I too loaded my powder from my Mec 600 Jr.  I drove 285 miles down to Valdosta GA for an annual match there, spent the night in a hotel and "tried" to shoot the match. About a third of my shotgun shells had varying amounts of powder in them...you just never knew how little or much the "boom" would be.  VERY frustrating.  Got back and tore down the shotshells I had left over and found differing amounts of powder in them.  What I didn't know then but what I know now is the BP will clump or bridge if you don't pour it out into something first and break up any of the clumps.  So now I just use the Lee dippers and each and every shotshell has the correct amount of powder in it, every time.

 

Kajun (what dips his BP)

I think I tried to load BP through a powder measure once.  It didn't work, even with commercial Swiss.  My own BP does not clump up but also does not meter well even if I graphite polish it, so everything is dippers now.

[Old Man Graybeard]

12 minutes ago, Todd Hayseed said:

I have all the tools and the components inbound to load just like this.  Happy to hear that it works, I was not sure.

 

I thought the higher burn temperature of Black Powder and APP would actually melt or burn a one piece plastic wad.  Seems it does not!

I do not use the plastic wads. I didn’t like the plastic snake. I use fiber cushion wads over a nitro card.  The white/clear flocci hulls seem to roll crimp better than most of the plastic hulls I have tried. I have to use Cheddite primers though…Winchester primers are a little too loose. I usually get my supplies from Ballistic Products. 

[Todd Hayseed]

2 hours ago, Old Man Graybeard said:

I do not use the plastic wads. I didn’t like the plastic snake. I use fiber cushion wads over a nitro card.  The white/clear flocci hulls seem to roll crimp better than most of the plastic hulls I have tried. I have to use Cheddite primers though…Winchester primers are a little too loose. I usually get my supplies from Ballistic Products. 

I have brass shells that take large pistol primers and I want to go full traditional with black powder and traditional wads in time.. But I'll have to work up to that.

 

I did get some plastic shells to start out with that I will be reloading modern style for now.  I am good loading the rifle/pistol ammo but I haven't loaded Shotgun since 1982.

[Old Man Graybeard]

15 minutes ago, Todd Hayseed said:

I have brass shells that take large pistol primers and I want to go full traditional with black powder and traditional wads in time.. But I'll have to work up to that.

 

I did get some plastic shells to start out with that I will be reloading modern style for now.  I am good loading the rifle/pistol ammo but I haven't loaded Shotgun since 1982.

If you have mag-tech brass hulls..you are getting into a little different animal again. Track of the Wold and Ballistic Products are your best friends there. The Mag-Tech brass take …I believe…an 11 gauge wad and nitro card and a 10 gauge overshot card. This is because they have a lot thinner case walls. And I lubed the fiber wads with some bore butter. It was recommended to me that I do that. With the plastic hulls I have not lubed the wads using APP 2ffg powder

Edited August 29 by Old Man Graybeard

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

I’m just piling on/agreeing to what others have said, but this is what works for me after 15 years of loading real BP. 

AA hulls (very used after 2-3 smokeless loads). Toss ‘em after firing BP. 

 

1 oz #8 shot, pink Claybuster wad

 

Win 209 primer

 

#30 Mec bushing which is around 36 grains Goex 2 or 3f. I’m with Griff and load without dippers, so I’ve no idea how many CCs that is. Keep in mind that the weight of the charge is irrelevant. I’ve just found that volume of real BP works for me. 
 

Stack height is a whisker short, but the crimp closes without shot leaks. 
 

Water is the main ingredient for cleaning fouling. You can add Murphy’s Oil Soap, hydrogen peroxide, rubbing alcohol, Ballistol etc. as additives, but it’s the water that does the bulk of the work. The hotter the better. Wait 5 minutes or longer, and the plastic snot pushes out with a tight paper towel wad. It’s a non-issue for me. 
 

One editorial note/opinion for those who like “artillery” rounds. If that’s your thing, fine. But please let your posse know as you approach the line. Some of us have little hearing left and that boom is more than uncomfortable, even with the best hearing protection. I’d like the option of stepping aside, especially where the stages are semi enclosed like at my range and Land Run, et al. 

 

The above suggested load is mild on recoil, more than enough to knock down a target, yet still provide a satisfying boom, smoke and flame. 
 

YMMV. 

 

 

 

[Blackwater 53393]

4 hours ago, Old Man Graybeard said:

If you have mag-tech brass hulls..you are getting into a little different animal again. Track of the Wold and Ballistic Products are your best friends there. The Mag-Tech brass take …I believe…an 11 gauge wad and nitro card and a 10 gauge overshot card. This is because they have a lot thinner case walls. And I lubed the fiber wads with some bore butter. It was recommended to me that I do that. With the plastic hulls I have not lubed the wads using APP 2ffg powder

OMG! Correct on everything but the over shot card!!  Use an 11ga card if you’re gluing them in.  If you’re roll crimping, you can get away with a 12ga!!

 

A 10ga card will likely wrinkle and won’t usually seat squarely.

 

 

How ya’ been, pard??  Long time…

[Todd Hayseed]

45 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

OMG! Correct on everything but the over shot card!!  Use an 11ga card if you’re gluing them in.  If you’re roll crimping, you can get away with a 12ga!!

 

A 10ga card will likely wrinkle and won’t usually seat squarely.

 

 

How ya’ been, pard??  Long time…

I have the correct wads coming for plastic shells it seems.  Too small for the brass ones I have.  I'll get plenty of practice with Plastic hulls before I try the ones that cost over a dollar each.  So I have no intention of crimping these, they cost too much.  I might have to a little just to make them easier to load, but no more than I have to,

 

So once a plastic shell has been loaded with BP its done then?

[Blackwater 53393]

The proper roll crimp will not damage your brass shells.  You should probably anneal them after the first couple of times you shoot ‘em.

 

Here’s a before picture taken of a properly crimped brass shell.

 

 

 

This is the same shell after it was fired.

 

 

 

I washed it out with hot soapy water, ran it through the tumbler, primed it, and reloaded and re-crimped it.

 

 

Edited August 30 by Blackwater 53393

[Erasmus]

I use a 10 ga overshot card in Magtech brass hulls. I don't roll crimp, my load isn't hot enough blow the crimp out and it makes reloading more difficult. I do use a dab of bore butter between the nitro card and the fiber wad. 

 

I load a square load with a 7/8 oz shot scoop full of FFg or FFFg, a nitro card, lube, cushion wad, shot, overshot card, Elmer's School glue (it cleans up easier), enough to completely cover the top of the overshot card. 

 

If anything I might run the shell up into an RCBS roll crimp die just enough for an almost imperceptible roll to make getting them into the chamber just a touch easier. 

[Old Man Graybeard]

Hello Blackwater...doing fairly well. Been kind of a lost year for me...but getting back on track. In the middle of getting cataracts taken care of. Heart is better now. Hope to get some shooting done this winter...only got to shoot a couple of matches this year.

[Blackwater 53393]

One of my favorite things about changing over to roll crimping my brass shells is that I no longer have to mess with glue!!  My finished shells come straight out of the press and go directly into boxes.  The die seats the over shot card and finishes the crimp, no muss, no fuss and straight into the box!  AND! I don’t have to wait around for the glue to dry!!

 

I have a BUNCH of 12ga brass shells and sometimes they can sit on the shelf for a year or more.  Back when I was gluing in my over shot cards, I had some that the glue dried out in and shrunk in away from the wall of the shells. Imagine my surprise when I threw those shells into the chamber and an ounce of shot came rolling down and out the end of the barrel.

 

I went to a silicone based adhesive to prevent the problem, but that stuff is a pain in the butt to deal with and really difficult to get out of clothing and off of other stuff. Besides! I have to deal with it in my automotive endeavors and I HATE the smell of it.

 

I’ve also found that even much lighter loads than I like to shoot will adequately straighten the brass shells for reloading and it REALLY makes chambering rounds easier in my doubles and in my ‘97s too!!!   (Yeah! I shoot Black Powder out of my ‘97s now and then!)

 

 

Edited August 30 by Blackwater 53393

[Blackwater 53393]

21 minutes ago, Old Man Graybeard said:

Hello Blackwater...doing fairly well. Been kind of a lost year for me...but getting back on track. In the middle of getting cataracts taken care of. Heart is better now. Hope to get some shooting done this winter...only got to shoot a couple of matches this year.

Glad to hear it!! I can certainly relate to the health issues and lost time!  And it’s been hotter than the hinges of Hades this year!

 

I’m getting back to better health as well!

 

Like I said!! It’s good to see ya’ back out here where we can harrass ya’!!

[Rattlesnake Slim]

10 hours ago, Todd Hayseed said:

So once a plastic shell has been loaded with BP its done then?

 

Not necessarily, I load them until they won't stay crimped anymore.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

With the Remington STS or Nitro hulls, I have gotten up to 5 reloads with real BP (regular star crimp).  The sides get pretty "frosted" but they keep shucking out of my Baikal or TTN.  I know a lot of people don't load them but once or twice and that's fine, better dumpster diving for me. 

[Rattlesnake Slim]

3 hours ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

With the Remington STS or Nitro hulls, I have gotten up to 5 reloads with real BP (regular star crimp).  The sides get pretty "frosted" but they keep shucking out of my Baikal or TTN.  I know a lot of people don't load them but once or twice and that's fine, better dumpster diving for me. 

 

It might just be my imagination, but I think that the plastic shrinks as it gets burnt making them a little easier to shuck, although a little harder to reload.