Pietta Great Western II not fully cocking 9mm cylinder??

[Mad Major Shelton]

Hello! I am a long time listener, first time caller.  I plan to get into CAS when I retire from the Army in about 4 years, so I am starting to acquire my gear now.  I just bought a Pietta 1873 Great Western II .357, that came with a 9mm cylinder.  Today was the first day at the range with it.  I was blazing away with the .357 cylinder.  I fired .357, .38 sp +P, and 38 sp through it with zero hiccups.  The gun ran beautifully.  I was very stoked.  Then I switched to the 9mm cylinder.  First round was fine.  Second round, the hammer would only go back to half cock.  I let the hammer back down easily, and re-cocked to the 3rd round.  Same thing.  Hammer only stayed at half-cock.  I was thinking, well, maybe the 9mm cylinder only needs half cock for some reason.  I was able to fire 2 rounds on half cock.  But I felt uneasy about doing it.  I can slip the hammer and fire just fine.  The hammer will come all the way back to full cock, but wont stay there.  It will only stay at half cock.  I fired another 12 rounds of 9mm, and it was hit or miss whether the hammer would stay all the way back or not.  

 

So here are my questions:
1. If anybody has the same gun I have, is this normal for the 9mm cylinder to only need half cock?

2. Since the .357 cylinder worked perfectly, I have to suspect something wrong with the cylinder.  But what is it about the cylinder that affects the hammer??  I thought the trigger is the only thing that affects the hammer?

3. How much response has anyone had from Pietta customer service?

4. Do y'all think I can get a new cylinder without having to send the whole gun back?

 

Looking forward to your responses and many thanks for your advice in advance!

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Did to put the .357 cyl back in and test fire?

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

2 minutes ago, Mad Major Shelton said:

So here are my questions:
1. If anybody has the same gun I have, is this normal for the 9mm cylinder to only need half cock? No it is not normal.  Trying to shoot the gun from half-cock can damage the full cock notch on the hammer or the break the tip off of the trigger.

2. Since the .357 cylinder worked perfectly, I have to suspect something wrong with the cylinder.  But what is it about the cylinder that affects the hammer??  I thought the trigger is the only thing that affects the hammer?  What stops the hammer from going back further is the fit of the hand/pawl to the ratchet teeth.  Once the cylinder locking bolt drops into the cylinder notch the hand cannot push the cylinder any further and the hammer cannot get to full cock.

3. How much response has anyone had from Pietta customer service?  Most service is not done by Pietta as they are in Italy.  Warranty work is usually done by the importer that imported the gun.  For example, Cimarron, Taylor or EMF.

4. Do y'all think I can get a new cylinder without having to send the whole gun back?  If it was a factory twin cylincer model the cylinders should have been fitted.  A new cylinder probably will not solve the problem.  The hand needs to be adjusted so it works with both cylinders.

 

Looking forward to your responses and many thanks for your advice in advance!

 

[Mad Major Shelton]

13 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Did to put the .357 cyl back in and test fire?

 

Yes, I put the .357 back in, and fire the previous three loads just as before.  .357, .38 sp +P, and .38 SP.  All did just fine after I swapped back to the .357 cylinder.

But check this out.  I got my calipers out and started measuring the two cylinders to see what the difference is ( I was a mechanical engineer before I joined the Army).  The 9mm cylinder has a counter bore on the raised gear looking space (Not sure what that is called).  But the .357 does not.  Could that cause the problem?  Here is a pic of the two cylinders.  the one on the left is the .357.
 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

The counter bore is because the 9mm headspaces on the casemouth. 

I'm starting to think that cyl is not the correct one for that gun.

[Mad Major Shelton]

8 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

The counter bore is because the 9mm headspaces on the casemouth. 

I'm starting to think that cyl is not the correct one for that gun.

 

I agree.  I just sent an message to KC Small Arms on their customer service contact web page.  They are the importer.  I will post back when they respond.

 

Till then, I will keep blazing with .357 and .38sp!!  Freaking love this gun other than the 9mm problem.

[ORNERY OAF]

It's probably the cowboy gun rejecting that horrible European caliber......also, sass needs lead, gonna need to reload or buy lead 9mm ifn ya was to shoot that thing at a match

[Mad Major Shelton]

1 hour ago, ORNERY OAF said:

It's probably the cowboy gun rejecting that horrible European caliber......also, sass needs lead, gonna need to reload or buy lead 9mm ifn ya was to shoot that thing at a match

 

Ha Ha!  You're probably right.  I wish we could get rid of it in the Army.  We got a better side arm, but kept the freaking 9mm.  But no, I don't intend to compete with it.  Even the rounds I did get to go off just didn't feel like a real gun to me.  I got some Prvi Partizan Lead Round Nose .38 special at the PX for $22 a box.  Works out to around 48 cents a bullet.  Can you reload for cheaper than that?  I never got into reloading, mostly cause I only owned .22 and .22 mag for the longest time.  But I was actually looking around at reloading setups.  I might have to invest in a decent setup.  But yeah, the Prvi Partizan kept a tighter group than the .357 or the Speer .38 Special Lawman FMJ +P.  I think I might have been flinching a little with the .357.  It certainly lets ya know what magnum means!  I am still getting use to the gun, today was the first time shooting a SA bigger than .22 mag, and I do like it.  I've had glocks, keltecs, and of course the military guns, but there is just something about the allure of the single action Army when I have my boots and hat on.  Being raised in the hills of East Tennessee, that's the guns (cowboy revolvers) I grew up on.

 

I never knew about CAS until recently when I was just surfing the net one day looking for some good ways to keep my skills fresh.  As soon as I saw the first youtube video, I knew I had to get back to my roots.  So far I have a shotgun and the Pietta.  By the time I retire I plan to have a good 1892 Lever Action Winchester clone in .357 and another Pietta to match the one I just bought.  Then maybe I'll get on the range with y'all and see if I can keep up with y'all!

[Sedalia Dave]

9 hours ago, Mad Major Shelton said:

  I got some Prvi Partizan Lead Round Nose .38 special at the PX for $22 a box.  Works out to around 48 cents a bullet.  Can you reload for cheaper than that? 

 

Yes.  You can reload 38 specials for about 16 to 20 cents a round. (Cost varies depending on the price paid for primers and bullets)

 

BTW I don't count the cost of the brass because you can load it so many times that the spread out cost is insignificant. 

[Sedalia Dave]

Another benefit of reloading is that you don't have to load to maximum velocity. In CAS there is no need to kill the target just hit it.

[Mad Major Shelton]

The plot thickens.  So I contacted Pietta last night via email, and they responded today.  They referred me to EMF.  I didn't think my gun came from EMF.  Turns out, it did not.  But the gunsmith at EMF, Charlie, was very nice and gave me a little bit of advice about the 9mm cylinder and told me there is supposed to be a bushing in the cylinder.  Mine does not have the bushing, but does have the counter bore where a bushing could sit.  He referred me to Park West Firearms.  The gun says KC Small Arms on the barrel.  Apparently that is another name for Davidson's, and Charlie said Park West Firearms does warranty service for Davidson's.  So I sent them an email this evening.  I will see what their response is.

 

HOWEVER.... I was doing a thorough cleaning of the gun tonight and added some CLP to the action / hammer to lubricate it more.  Then I thought I would measure the total overall length of the cylinders.  If the 9mm was smaller, that would make sense to me that it needs a bushing.  The .357 cylinder measured 1.8685" and the 9mm measured 1.8675".  That's only a 0.001" of a difference.  I measured several times to take out any variability and got the same numbers every time.  I sent pics of these measurements to Park West.  Ok says I, I will try to put the 9mm cylinder back in and see what happens.  Surely a 0.001" difference can not cause that much of a problem.  Back in a former life when I did mechanical engineering work if there was a .001" difference between two parts we did give two craps about it, unless it was a press fit with zero room for error on the tolerances.  But even then, we usually had about a -.002" + 0.00 tolerance.  So I swapped the 9mm cylinder in and it fully locked to full cock this time.  I cycled the action several times without dry firing, and it locked every single time to full cock.  "What gives?" says I.  So I thought maybe it was having the rounds in it that made a difference.  I loaded a full cylinder, and cycled the action several more times, at least 4 full turns around.  It locked in full cock each time.

 

So... here is the only thing I think might have made a difference.  I fired 150 rounds of 38 special and 50 rounds of .357 the other day at the range.  I only fired about 12 rounds before I switched to the 9mm.  I remember having difficulty getting the base pin sit right with the 9mm cylinder.  Today when I put the 9mm cylinder in, the base pin sit a lot better.  I am wondering if the absence of that bushing was making it difficult for me to get the base pin to line up right at the range.  I also wonder if firing 200 rounds through the gun broke it in a little bit and made it easier to seat the base pin.  I am going to go to the range in the morning before work, and see if it will fire off the 9mm with no issues.  I hope that's all there was to it.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

In all honesty it is hard figuring out what you are talking about so let's do a little explaining.  Here is a new Pietta .357 cylinder.  The red arrow is pointing to the cylinder bushing.  All Pietta's I have ever seen have this bushing.

 

 

Here is the bushing pulled part way out of the cylinder.

 

 

Here is your photo.  The cylinder on the right has a bushing.  The cylinder on the left does not appear to have a bushing.  The ratchet diameters and teeth look different.  Something just does not look right.  If you have two correct Pietta cylinders they should both have bushings.  If one cylinder does not it would seem you would take the bushing out of one and put it into the other.  HOWEVER, this is very unlikely as the bushings are fit to each cylinder.  With no bushing the cylinder would be flopping around loose on the base pin and the gun would not function at all or function very poorly.  EMF is THE main Pietta distributor and is owned by Pietta.  I looked at KC Small Arms website and they just look like a big gun store.  I would trust what EMF tells you.

 

 

 

 

 

[Mad Major Shelton]

Larsen, KC Small Arms - I think this is just a name Davidson's uses to import guns.  Davidson's website looks like that are a fairly large distributor that sells to dealers.  I could not KC Small Arms in any listings on the internet or under FFL dealers in Harrisburg, PA.  I found the same one you also found on the internet.  They are just a small store front.  I emailed them yesterday as well.  They emailed me back saying they are not the droids I am looking for.  

 

Now that I was able to seat the base pin properly, I think it might have just been operator error and stiff parts that needed to be broken in.  

 

Oh yeah, one more thing I wanted to add.  The more I shot at the range the better I got.  When I was shooting from a rest, I would shoot 5 inches low???  Shooting off hand with one or two hands, I was dead on by the time I got to the last 50 rounds.  In fact, I hit a 20oz MT Dew bottle at 50 yards on the first try.  I'm not one to bragg (well maybe a little), but I think I might be able to hold my own with this gun.  

 

Bad news about my shotgun though.  It is an old Crescent "Enders Royal Service" double barrel.  My son got it from my wife's grandfather when he passed away several years ago, and had never shot it.  I figured I would use it for CAS.  Well, after about 10 rounds of #6 standard velocity bird shot, the screws in the receiver started coming loose, and the receiver had split some splinters off of the stock.  So obviously I stopped shooting it.  Turns out the screws in the receiver were stripped, and each round I fired worked them loose a little bit each time.  Do you guys think it would be worth it to rebuild it, or should I just hang it on the wall so the kids can see it and remember ole' Poppy?

[Mad Major Shelton]

32 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

 

The ratchet diameters and teeth look different.  Something just does not look right.  

 

I thought so too.  So I measured them.  The ratchet diameters are actually the same, as are the teeth height, depth, and width.  I think the fact that one has a bushing and the other doesn't is causing an optical illusion.  I thought when Charlie said "bushing" he meant there was a bushing that sat in the counter bore.  Now that I see your cylinders, I can see what I thought was a counter bore is the empty space formed by the bushing not coming all the way through.  As far as why the .357 does not have a bushing, maybe Pietta figured out there is no need for a bushing if they can bore the base pin hole in line with the cylinder chambers?? I dunno.  If it shoots well at the range in the morning, I am thinking about calling Park West and telling them not to worry about it.  I love this gun and I don't want to have to ship it off.

[Mad Major Shelton]

I just got another email from Pietta.  They said there should be nothing wrong with the cylinders.  They said they look different because they changed their machining process last summer, as I suspected.  I would say once they sell out of all their old 9mm cylinders, the news will look like my .357.

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

7 hours ago, Mad Major Shelton said:

I just got another email from Pietta.  They said there should be nothing wrong with the cylinders.  They said they look different because they changed their machining process last summer, as I suspected.  I would say once they sell out of all their old 9mm cylinders, the news will look like my .357.

 

Post a picture of the front of both cylinders 

[Tex Jones, SASS 2263]

Regarding the shotgun, do not shoot it again.  Depending on the serial number, it may be an early one, which will not handle modern ammunition. If you Google the name there are some threads regarding the gun.  Below is one I copied:

 

ENDERS OAK LEAF- Crescent Fire Arms Co. and Stevens Arms & Tool Co.
WM. ENDERS OAK LEAF WALDEN NY U.S.A. PATENTED AUGUST 12 1913-J. Stevens Arms & Tool Co.
ENDERS ROYAL---Crescent---Davis Arms Corp.
ENDERS ROYAL AMERICAN--Crescent Fire Arms Co.
ENDERS ROYAL CANNON BREECH-Hopkins & Allen
ENDERS ROYAL FIELD-Crescent Fire Arms Co.
ENDERS ROYAL PIGEON-Crescent Fire Arms Co.
ENDERS ROYAL SERVICE--Crescent Fire Arms Co. Hunter Arms Co.
ENDERS ROYAL WITH ROYAL STEEL-Hunter Arms Co.
ENDERS ROYAL WESTERN-Crescent Fire Arms Co.
and
ENDERS SPECIAL SERVICE-Crescent Fire Arms Co.
All were made for and sold by the Shapleigh Hardware Co.

 

Be careful.  Shotguns are cheaper than new fingers or eyes.

 

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[Mad Major Shelton]

So, I went to the range early this morning with the 9mm cylinder installed.  I fired off 30 rounds with no hiccups at all.  All 30 worked with the hammer locked back to full cock.  I think I am going to chalk this one up to operator error on my part, or maybe the gun just needed to be broken in a bit.

 

Roger that Tex on the Shotgun.  I am pretty sure it is not the Damascus steel, but the screws and lock seem to be pretty old and some are stripped out.  Looks like from the screw heads somebody has been inside of it several times before.  I think I am going to make it a wall hanger.  And that means I get to buy a new shotgun!  Warm up the credit card honey!  Speaking of that, I really like the look of the External Hammer Coach Guns.  I gotta say though, seems like it would take longer to cock than the internal hammer coach guns.  Anybody have a preference?  Are there tricks you can learn to make reloading and cocking a moot point between the two?

 

Lumpy Grits, I can post a pic of the front of the cylinders later, but they both look and measured exactly the same on the front.

[Cholla]

If you are not shooting Classic Cowboy, you will be slowed down using an external hammered shotgun. It takes a great deal of practice to operate one quickly. Most non-CC shooters go with a 97 or an internal hammered side-by-side. You really, really, really need to attend a few matches to see what other shooters are using before buying any guns or gear. It will save your wallet.

[Lead Monger]

Plus 1 to Cholla.

However. There has been recent discussion on the CZ Sharptail and slicking that double up for our game. It’s a really nice shotgun. Outside hammers will be a little bit slower but the CZ Hammer classic is a very nice gun as well.

[Mad Major Shelton]

On 2/21/2024 at 5:08 PM, Cholla said:

 You really, really, really need to attend a few matches to see what other shooters are using before buying any guns or gear. It will save your wallet.

 

So I know there is a CAS range, South River Shootists, about 2 hours away from me on the southern side of Atlanta near Covington GA.  Is there a website that shows different ranges that host CAS matches?  There are several commercial ranges nearby me here in FT Eisenhower (formerly known as FT Gordon) but I have never heard of any hosting a CAS event.  Anybody can point me in the right direction?

[Cholla]

Just now, Mad Major Shelton said:

 

So I know there is a CAS range, South River Shootists, about 2 hours away from me on the southern side of Atlanta near Covington GA.  Is there a website that shows different ranges that host CAS matches?  There are several commercial ranges nearby me here in FT Eisenhower (formerly known as FT Gordon) but I have never heard of any hosting a CAS event.  Anybody can point me in the right direction?

Have you looked at the map in the forum here?

[Mad Major Shelton]

15 minutes ago, Cholla said:

Have you looked at the map in the forum here?

 

Now why didn't I think of that?  I found it, thanks Cholla!

[Tyrel Cody]

57 minutes ago, Mad Major Shelton said:

 

So I know there is a CAS range, South River Shootists, about 2 hours away from me on the southern side of Atlanta near Covington GA.  Is there a website that shows different ranges that host CAS matches?  There are several commercial ranges nearby me here in FT Eisenhower (formerly known as FT Gordon) but I have never heard of any hosting a CAS event.  Anybody can point me in the right direction?

 Might be some clubs in South Carolina not too far from you as well, Belton Gun Club comes to mind.

[Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667]

2 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 Might be some clubs in South Carolina not too far from you as well, Belton Gun Club comes to mind.

And Greenville Gunfighters (not far off of I-85); our match is this Sunday.

[Mad Major Shelton]

Thanks guys!  I found Belton Bushwhackers and Savannah River Rangers over near Columbia.  I didn't know about Greenville Gunfighters, I will have to look them up to.  

 

Boy I'll tell ya, the more I shoot this gun, the more familiar it becomes and the better I get with it.  Its hard for me to believe I shoot it better than I shoot the Army's pistols.  Maybe its because I have to slow down a bit to cock the hammer and that forces me to focus on sight picture more.  I think I have decided to get another one just like it when I decide to start competing.  

 

But as for a shot gun and a rifle...  I think y'all are right and I need to go to a match and see what everybody else uses and what I think will work for me.  I do have a quick question though about the shot guns.  Most videos I see show guys using the hammerless coach guns.  But I saw one where a lady shooter was using a lever action shot gun.  I am not at all familiar with lever action shot guns so I looked up some shotguns and realized they can hold up 5 rounds in the magazine tube.  Does SASS / CAS rules allow you to keep the magazine fully loaded?  Or can you only load two so as not to have an unfair advantage over the coach gunners?

[Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667]

On 2/25/2024 at 6:29 PM, Mad Major Shelton said:

I do have a quick question though about the shot guns.  Most videos I see show guys using the hammerless coach guns.  But I saw one where a lady shooter was using a lever action shot gun.  I am not at all familiar with lever action shot guns so I looked up some shotguns and realized they can hold up 5 rounds in the magazine tube.  Does SASS / CAS rules allow you to keep the magazine fully loaded?  Or can you only load two so as not to have an unfair advantage over the coach gunners?

It may be time to download the Shooters Handbook, free from www.sassnet.com.

 

We don’t load the shotgun ahead of time (unless the stage instructions allow it which is rare).  It is “staged” open and empty.  We load it as we are preparing to shoot the shotgun targets.  The shooter may load up to two shells into the shotgun at a time.

 

Wild Bunch Action Shooting rules are different.  One thing at a time.

[Tyrel Cody]

20 minutes ago, Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667 said:

It may be time to download the Shooters Handbook, free from www.sassnet.com.

 

 

 

Great advice, even better @Mad Major Shelton get to a match and observe; lots better than the wire or the handbook...

 

Oh and welcome!