PID Controller

[Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L]

Anybody know of a plug and play PID Controller for bullet casting? I'm electronically challenged and don't have the patience to learn. I've tried on Castboolits, but the one guy there hasn't responded and looks like he's been off the site for a while.

[La Sombra]

@Sedalia Dave might be able to assist.

 

La Sombra

[Sam Sackett]

There is a dude over on the Castboolits forum that has been selling these for quite a while. He has a good reputation there. You can check it out here:

 

 https://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?277-HATCH-Automation

 

Sam Sackett 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Have you tried using a thermometer? 

[Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L]

1 hour ago, Sam Sackett said:

There is a dude over on the Castboolits forum that has been selling these for quite a while. He has a good reputation there. You can check it out here:

 

 https://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?277-HATCH-Automation

 

Sam Sackett 

That's the guy I've tried to get a hold of, but thanks.

[Sedalia Dave]

13 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Have you tried using a thermometer? 

 

A thermometer will only tell you the temperature of the lead. A PID controller will allow you set a desired temperature and it will constantly maintain that temperature. 

 

PID stands for Proportional, Integral, and Differential control. It uses the three different algorithms to anticipate any changes from the desired state. There are thousands of control applications that use PID controllers to control temperature, flow, pressure, and movement to name a few. Think of them as a engine governor but infinitely more capable.  

 

The temperature control on all budget lead pots is crap. I have 2 of the lee Pro-20 pots and they will not keep lead at the correct temperature for consistent quality bullets. With a lot of attention and constant tweaking you might keep the temp within 50 degrees of your desired temp but the level of effort to do so is not worth it.  

 

To get good temperature control you are looking at a minimum of $350.00 for a commercial pot with digital controls.

Back in 2020 I decided I could build my own precision temperature control for a lot less than the cost of a new pot so I did. It works great and easily kept the temperature of the lead to within 5 degrees of the set point. If I cut the sprue on my 6 cavity Lee round ball mold and immediately put it back into the pot it has zero adverse effect on the temperature of the lead in the pot and I can cast twice as many round balls before stopping and adding another 10 pounds of lead to the pot. 

 

I sold my original controller to Tequila Shooter so that he and La Sambra could get into bullet casting for long range with a lot less frustration and money.

 

BTW You can buy plug and play PID controllers on Amazon but as far as I can tell they are limited to a max temp of 212 degrees.

[Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L]

1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Have you tried using a thermometer? 

I do have a thermometer, but my guru says I should have a PID, for more precise temp control. This is all new to me and I'd like it to go as smooth as possible.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Second Sam's reply.  Hatch on Cast Boolits.  About $125 for a single-thermocouple unit.   Have one running my lead pots.  Holds +/- 10 deg F even if I return sprues to the pot as I cast.  Has run for 4 years no problem.

 

Hatch is a busy guy.   Looks at his messages and ships equipment on the weekends.

 

good luck, GJ

[Sedalia Dave]

@Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L   I suggest you send Hatch a PM over on the cast bullets website. The message notification feature on the Cast bullet forum has been acting up. 

 

From reading the forums it may take a week for Hatch to respond.

 

 

[Dantankerous]

SD,

 

Some of your posts are really starting to sound like Driftwood Johnson's PhD dissertations.

 

 

Very enjoyable. Thank you.

 

 

 

 

[Sedalia Dave]

23 minutes ago, Dantankerous said:

SD,

 

Some of your posts are really starting to sound like Driftwood Johnson's PhD dissertations.

 

 

Very enjoyable. Thank you.

 

 

Your welcome.

 

I am stuck at work waiting on someone else to repair a system so I can conduct a verification test. So to pass the time I'm catching up on the forums.

 

To solve a problem with some equipment where I work I had to learn way more about PID control than I ever wanted to know. Configuring one manually with the proper values for each algorithm is a royal PITA.

 

Fortunately you can buy a smart controller that has a built in learning mode. For bullet casting, using the auto learned settings is more than accurate enough.  If you're willing to tinker with the settings you can regulate the temperature of with amazing accuracy. 

 

As a side note Sous Vide cooking is only possible because the temperature of the water is regulated by a PID controller. 

[Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L]

1 hour ago, Sedalia Dave said:

@Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L   I suggest you send Hatch a PM over on the cast bullets website. The message notification feature on the Cast bullet forum has been acting up. 

 

From reading the forums it may take a week for Hatch to respond.

 

 

Thanks, I did send a PM a few days ago and also followed up with an email. It looks like he hasn't been active on the site for about a month. 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

The PID units are limited by the thermocouple that you stick into the port.  Get a thermocouple that handles at least 900 F.  The GoLander units Hatch provides handle:  T, R, J, B, S, K, E, WRe3-WRe25

 

A J or K thermocouple should be fine for casting.     I believe standard that he provides is the J type (iron/constantan).

 

good luck, GJ

 

 

 

[Sedalia Dave]

39 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

The PID units are limited by the thermocouple that you stick into the port.  Get a thermocouple that handles at least 900 F.  The GoLander units Hatch provides handle:  T, R, J, B, S, K, E, WRe3-WRe25

 

A J or K thermocouple should be fine for casting.     I believe standard that he provides is the J type (iron/constantan).

 

good luck, GJ

 

 

 

 

Not all are limited by the thermocouple.

 

All of the of the budget plug and play units ( those that require the purchaser to do nothing but plug them in) are incapable of being set to temperatures greater than 100 degrees C.

 

Hatch's units use a PID controller made by GoLander. The two I have built use InkBird controllers. Both units require a separate solid state relay to control the load as the contacts within the PID unit are not capable of handling more than a few miliamps of current. For safety and ease of use everything is installed into a project box. 

 

Here is the link to my first one.

 

 

 

 

 

[Griff]

Or... buy a Lyman Mag25, it has a PID controller built in.  It works well, I've had mine about 5 years now when my old Lyman Mag20 pot burned out.  (I also have one of Hatch's PID controllers on my Lee pot for casting round balls for BP).

[Eyesa Horg]

4 hours ago, Griff said:

Or... buy a Lyman Mag25, it has a PID controller built in.  It works well, I've had mine about 5 years now when my old Lyman Mag20 pot burned out.  (I also have one of Hatch's PID controllers on my Lee pot for casting round balls for BP).

What temp do you like for round balls, please?

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

10 hours ago, Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L said:

I do have a thermometer, but my guru says I should have a PID, for more precise temp control. This is all new to me and I'd like it to go as smooth as possible.

Started casting about 50 years ago.

Use a thermometer in the melt and ladle pour from my Lee 20lb pot.

Old school and KISS. 

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

10 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

A thermometer will only tell you the temperature of the lead. A PID controller will allow you set a desired temperature and it will constantly maintain that temperature. 

 

PID stands for Proportional, Integral, and Differential control. It uses the three different algorithms to anticipate any changes from the desired state. There are thousands of control applications that use PID controllers to control temperature, flow, pressure, and movement to name a few. Think of them as a engine governor but infinitely more capable.  

 

The temperature control on all budget lead pots is crap. I have 2 of the lee Pro-20 pots and they will not keep lead at the correct temperature for consistent quality bullets. With a lot of attention and constant tweaking you might keep the temp within 50 degrees of your desired temp but the level of effort to do so is not worth it.  

 

To get good temperature control you are looking at a minimum of $350.00 for a commercial pot with digital controls.

Back in 2020 I decided I could build my own precision temperature control for a lot less than the cost of a new pot so I did. It works great and easily kept the temperature of the lead to within 5 degrees of the set point. If I cut the sprue on my 6 cavity Lee round ball mold and immediately put it back into the pot it has zero adverse effect on the temperature of the lead in the pot and I can cast twice as many round balls before stopping and adding another 10 pounds of lead to the pot. 

 

I sold my original controller to Tequila Shooter so that he and La Sambra could get into bullet casting for long range with a lot less frustration and money.

 

BTW You can buy plug and play PID controllers on Amazon but as far as I can tell they are limited to a max temp of 212 degrees.

My Lee holds temp within 10-15*

Bought the Lee about 30 yrs ago.

FWIW: I cast at 790*.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

6 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

What temp do you like for round balls, please?

Best casting temp is dependent on what metal the MOLD is made from.   Iron casts with lower temps than others, brass next, and aluminum works best when temps are hotter.    And it depends on your casting rate.  If you cast slowly the mold cools more, and the lead temp needs to be higher.  And, always preheat molds on a hot plate or an electric stove turned real low - you get the mold and sprue plate up to temp faster and more evenly than using a "dip corner in lead" or torch heating.

 

So, soft lead I cast well at 750 F,  for my bottom pour pot, steel mold and casting rate (which is fast, as soon as I see the sprue quit changing crystalline surface texture).   Your conditions probably vary from mine.   If you just can't get wrinkles out, need more heat (or a mold cleaning to get oil off).  If you see frosted product, need less heat (or faster rate or cooling the mold with a fan, etc.)

 

And, for reference, I cast my long range .30, .27, .32, .35 caliber bullets with 16+ Brinnell alloy, at 705 F.  Then I heat treat them in a toaster oven and water quench to 30 BNH,

 

good luck, GJ

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

7 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Not all are limited by the thermocouple.

 

You will note that I was talking ONLY about the Hatch assembled PIDs.   Main reason why I went with Hatch built was his use of a high quality controller with lots of choices for the temperature range of TC it will work with. 

 

good luck, GJ

[Griff]

1 hour ago, Eyesa Horg said:

What temp do you like for round balls, please?

710º.  

[Eyesa Horg]

I went about 725 with my Lee aluminum and got a lot of wrinkles. My new mold has an awful small spruce hole and doesn't fill as well as the old one I used to borrow. 

Thanks GJ and Griff,

Now back to the OP!!

[Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L]

9 hours ago, Griff said:

Or... buy a Lyman Mag25, it has a PID controller built in.  It works well, I've had mine about 5 years now when my old Lyman Mag20 pot burned out.  (I also have one of Hatch's PID controllers on my Lee pot for casting round balls for BP).

It may come to that. 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

3 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

725 with my Lee aluminum and got a lot of wrinkles.

Needs higher alloy temperature if you want to use the casting cadence you are used to.  Try the 750 F that I use.

 

good luck, GJ