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Ellyotte

Model 1887 proper rounds

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I had recently purchased an original Winchester Model 1887 10 Gauge and I have done more research on the types of loads it would originally take. Is it possibly to fire low load modern 10 gauge. Or should I use the original black power.

I was looking here http://www.buffaloarms.com/Black_Powder_Shotgun_Ammo_pr-4273.aspx
Wondering if any here would be okay to use.

 

What I am really worried about is case pressure differences.

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She should be loaded with BP loads only .

You could probably roll your own supper light loads that would be safe for the short distances we shoot shotgun .

But I would and do only run BP in my 87 !

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Do yourself and those next to you a huge favor and have the SG checked to be sure it is safe to shoot ORIGINAL BP loads in.

 

If the smith proves it safe then ONLY shoot it with real BP. Smokeless powder has a completely different pressure curve and should never be used in firearms not designed for smokeless. Definitely do not use substitutes in it as some are hotter than real BP and could over pressure the barrel.

 

Metalurgy was hit or miss prior to the early 1900s. You could be holding a ticking time bomb in your hands.

 

For clarification:

 

1887 was released in both 10 and 12 ga BP only. Model 1901 was released in 10 ga for use with early smokeless shells. 12 ga Model 1901 was never released.

Edited by Sedalia Dave

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In my limited experience talking with a creditable gunsmith, none or going to sign off on shooting an antique gun with any ammo. By default they will tell you not to shoot it. And I don't blame them. Too much liability. Even if the gun would hold up to a million rounds of black powder loads, he has no control over your loads or shooting of the gun.

 

I took a Baker Syracuse 10 gauge to get it poofed. He provided that service but refused to proof my gun. He gave me a rehearsed reply that he could not recommend shooting the gun for liability reasons. He said proof firing, even though it may pass the proof, it may introduce stresses that could lead to failure.

 

At the end of our visit, he leaned closer and said, "If it were my gun, I'd shoot it with light black powder loads and not worry about it.". Then he repeated his refusal to recommend shooting it.

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It depends on the date the '87 was made.

The ONLY original 87's ever proofed for smokeless were made in the last run of 10 ga that became known as the 1901's, because that's when they were made.

The 10ga shell made then was shorter than today's are. You will have to trim'em down.

NO, original 12ga '87 lever was ever proofed for smokeless powder.

OLG

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You should NEVER use smokeless loads in a firearm which was not designed to handle smokeless loads.

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I have an 87, built in 1891, that came with a "As-Is, Do Not Shoot" label affixed from the shop I bought it from.

As well as a nickel plated, side-levered, hammered 10ga double.

 

That didn't stop me....

 

So I order full length hulls from Ballistic Products, pre-primed, Federal or Cheddite.

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Cheddite-10ga-3-1_2-86mm-hulls-50_bag/productinfo/1391035/

 

I made myself a tool that I cut about 3/4" off each empty hull, although Ballistic Products makes one as well.

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Trim-Doctor-Shotshell-Case-Tool/productinfo/TRIM/

 

Using a larger Lee scoop, I put two scoops of 2f, a 1/8" card wad, a 1/2" lubed cushion wad, then two scoops of shot, then an over shot wad.

 

Use the roll crimper from Ballistic Products as well to finish it off.

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Original-Roll-Crimping-Tool-10ga/productinfo/ROLL10/

 

The Buffalo Arms ammo looks to be exact replicas of what I produce for my own use.

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I had almost exactly the same experience as Mr. Warden Callaway when I took my 1890 NH Parker 2 7/8" 10 gauge with 32" Twist barrels to get checked out.

 

After he told me what he would do if it was his gun, he declared,"But, I can't tell you that and I am not going to."

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It depends on the date the '87 was made.

The ONLY original 87's ever proofed for smokeless were made in the last run of 10 ga that became known as the 1901's, because that's when they were made.

The 10ga shell made then was shorter than today's are. You will have to trim'em down.

NO, original 12ga '87 lever was ever proofed for smokeless powder.

OLG

it is an 1887. It does not have the two piece lever like the 1901.

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I have an 87, built in 1891, that came with a "As-Is, Do Not Shoot" label affixed from the shop I bought it from.

As well as a nickel plated, side-levered, hammered 10ga double.

 

That didn't stop me....

 

So I order full length hulls from Ballistic Products, pre-primed, Federal or Cheddite.

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Cheddite-10ga-3-1_2-86mm-hulls-50_bag/productinfo/1391035/

 

I made myself a tool that I cut about 3/4" off each empty hull, although Ballistic Products makes one as well.

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Trim-Doctor-Shotshell-Case-Tool/productinfo/TRIM/

 

Using a larger Lee scoop, I put two scoops of 2f, a 1/8" card wad, a 1/2" lubed cushion wad, then two scoops of shot, then an over shot wad.

 

Use the roll crimper from Ballistic Products as well to finish it off.

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Original-Roll-Crimping-Tool-10ga/productinfo/ROLL10/

 

The Buffalo Arms ammo looks to be exact replicas of what I produce for my own use.

I still have to get a new mainspring for mine. Would you recommend the ones from Buffalo Arms?

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Folks that like old shotguns may find this link interesting.

 

The title is "1900 Shotshells & Ballistics - Turn-of-the-Century Shotshells, Powder, Proof & Ballistics."

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F2sQuPm05IE4VWYYnCkvuXmYEzQoWd_SQgaAfUOZEFU/mobilebasic

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On 12/20/2016 at 3:33 PM, Ellyotte said:

it is an 1887. It does not have the two piece lever like the 1901.

 

I think a call to the Cody Museum with your serial number might help you find out exactly when it was made.  They helped me with two of my Winchesters, well actually three, since I forgot my '87..........

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On 12/20/2016 at 5:42 PM, Ellyotte said:

I still have to get a new mainspring for mine. Would you recommend the ones from Buffalo Arms?

 

Read this thread. Especially the 2nd page.  Then PM the OP if you have any questions.

 

 

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Good evening to the wire - - - I don't often post, but when I do, I have a good reason !

 

Anyone needing replacement parts for the Winchester, 1887 and 1901, the IAC M-87w-20 and even the cheap, CAI (PW-87), need only to google www.ahlmans.com and be pleasantly surprised at the huge size and gun service capabilities of this gunshop. The shop was started in 1943 and just celebrated it's 75th year in business. The shop has (42) full and part-time employees including (13) full time gunsmiths (one of which has worked for Ahlmans Inc. right out of high school (55) years ago.

 

There is a huge parts department with four employees and a super-fast turn around for whatever you need (parts or repairs).  Warranty repair parts for just about every gun manufacturer. Crazy stuff you just can't find anyplace else, the odds are that Ahlmans will have the part, (or they will make it, because they can and they have) !

 

This includes Cowboy Action guns, and a trained gunsmith (with all the parts) for those cowboy guns - - - I should know, I trained him and gave him a huge inventory.

 

The address is  - - - (also the home of the SASS Midwest Regional Championships - - - sign up for the match, you won't regret it)

Ahlmans Inc.

Cowboy Action Dept,

9525 - 230th St. W.

Morristown, Minn. 55052

 

PS:::  the reason for this posting is the last few years have been tough going for me and I needed to retire. My heart and lungs are the problem from my service on Ranch Hand defoliate (agent orange) aircraft at Da Nang, Viet-Nam.  My retirement is mandatory to a dryer and warmer climate.

 

Respectfully submitted,

Coyote Cap

SASS Life 14184

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42 minutes ago, Coyote Cap, SASS Life #14184 said:

Good evening to the wire - - - I don't often post, but when I do, I have a good reason !

 

Anyone needing replacement parts for the Winchester, 1887 and 1901, the IAC M-87w-20 and even the cheap, CAI (PW-87), need only to google www.ahlmans.com and be pleasantly surprised at the huge size and gun service capabilities of this gunshop. The shop was started in 1943 and just celebrated it's 75th year in business. The shop has (42) full and part-time employees including (13) full time gunsmiths (one of which has worked for Ahlmans Inc. right out of high school (55) years ago.

 

There is a huge parts department with four employees and a super-fast turn around for whatever you need (parts or repairs).  Warranty repair parts for just about every gun manufacturer. Crazy stuff you just can't find anyplace else, the odds are that Ahlmans will have the part, (or they will make it, because they can and they have) !

 

This includes Cowboy Action guns, and a trained gunsmith (with all the parts) for those cowboy guns - - - I should know, I trained him and gave him a huge inventory.

 

The address is  - - - (also the home of the SASS Midwest Regional Championships - - - sign up for the match, you won't regret it)

Ahlmans Inc.

Cowboy Action Dept,

9525 - 230th St. W.

Morristown, Minn. 55052

 

PS:::  the reason for this posting is the last few years have been tough going for me and I needed to retire. My heart and lungs are the problem from my service on Ranch Hand defoliate (agent orange) aircraft at Da Nang, Viet-Nam.  My retirement is mandatory to a dryer and warmer climate.

 

Respectfully submitted,

Coyote Cap

SASS Life 14184

Sorry to hear about your illness. I am going to see a very good friend of mine who is dying of Parkinson's as a result of Agent Orange contact. He is a 25 year Marine and tough as they come by some of these diseases don't give a damn about toughness. Thank you for your time "in country."

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7 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

Read this thread. Especially the 2nd page.  Then PM the OP if you have any questions.

 

 

The OP posted this 2+ yrs ago and hasn't been on the forum in over a yr.

TNX Cap for the info!

OLG

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3 hours ago, Coyote Cap, SASS Life #14184 said:

Good evening to the wire - - - I don't often post, but when I do, I have a good reason !

 

Anyone needing replacement parts for the Winchester, 1887 and 1901, the IAC M-87w-20 and even the cheap, CAI (PW-87), need only to google www.ahlmans.com and be pleasantly surprised at the huge size and gun service capabilities of this gunshop. The shop was started in 1943 and just celebrated it's 75th year in business. The shop has (42) full and part-time employees including (13) full time gunsmiths (one of which has worked for Ahlmans Inc. right out of high school (55) years ago.

 

There is a huge parts department with four employees and a super-fast turn around for whatever you need (parts or repairs).  Warranty repair parts for just about every gun manufacturer. Crazy stuff you just can't find anyplace else, the odds are that Ahlmans will have the part, (or they will make it, because they can and they have) !

 

This includes Cowboy Action guns, and a trained gunsmith (with all the parts) for those cowboy guns - - - I should know, I trained him and gave him a huge inventory.

 

The address is  - - - (also the home of the SASS Midwest Regional Championships - - - sign up for the match, you won't regret it)

Ahlmans Inc.

Cowboy Action Dept,

9525 - 230th St. W.

Morristown, Minn. 55052

 

PS:::  the reason for this posting is the last few years have been tough going for me and I needed to retire. My heart and lungs are the problem from my service on Ranch Hand defoliate (agent orange) aircraft at Da Nang, Viet-Nam.  My retirement is mandatory to a dryer and warmer climate.

 

Respectfully submitted,

Coyote Cap

SASS Life 14184

 

Thanks for the update. 

 

We had plans to get to Ahlmans just before Christmas and stand at the parts counter until we found someone who knew if they actually had parts for the 87. But our plans changed.   Maybe this spring we'll get up there.  (I just wish Iowa wasn't in the way!)   

 

Is Dillon the Cowboy gun guy to talk to?  He fixed Sawmill Mary's Smoke Wagons.  

 

Take care. 

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Jake is the trained Cowboy Action gunsmith - - - Dillon is one of (13) gunsmiths working on modern firearms - - - Jake has the Cowboy parts in his dept.

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1 hour ago, Coyote Cap, SASS Life #14184 said:

Jake is the trained Cowboy Action gunsmith - - - Dillon is one of (13) gunsmiths working on modern firearms - - - Jake has the Cowboy parts in his dept.

 

We'll give them a call.  Thanks.

 

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On 1/5/2019 at 2:12 AM, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

The OP posted this 2+ yrs ago and hasn't been on the forum in over a yr.

 

OLG

OLG

 

Warden Callaway started that thread last Oct and posted to this one today?

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