WTC, GF having a problem with one gun.

[Null N. Void]

This didn't happen in a match.

 

However, we were discussing how, as the TO, one handles a GF gun malfunction. It started a discussion and I'd like to see what the wire says on how to resolve it.

 

Rifle and SG do not come into play other than a round has gone downrange. The GF then takes both pistols out and has the left piston lock up on him with the hammer NOT down on the first shot. He says it's broke and puts it down. With the right pistol he correctly shoots the first 5 shots of the sequence. The question is:

 

Can the GF pick up the broke pistol and try to get it to work? If he gets it working and shoots out the sequence with the left hand, is it a no call?

 

I'm trying to think ahead as a TO, and I thing the best way to handle it is to keep both pistols in hand, shoot out the right pistol and then try to fix the left pistol and shoot out the sequence if he gets it fixed. That's a no call, I believe. I'm not quite sure about it, because he has a cocked revolver in his hand and is probably shifting it between hands to free up the cylinder. I'm definitely not sure about picking up and handling a declared broke pistol during the revolver sequence. If there was guidance in the manuals, I didn't see it.

 

I await the comments.

 

Null N. Void

 

[evil dogooder]

Now i may be wrong but this it's how it was taught to me

If he calls malfunction that pistol is dead. You can't call it broke set it down then pick it up again. However he can shoot the other pistol dry There is no rule saying you have to alternate shots. You can shoot all five from one hand then all five from the other. He could actually reload His first pistol and still shoot the stage clean if he used the other hand.

 

If he thought he could get the pistol working again he would be better off holding both not say anything. Shoot the right hand dry holster, then get the left working and finish the string

[Snakebite]

IMO if the shooter declares a malfunction and grounds the cocked pistol he/she does not get penalized for putting down a cocked pistol, BUT, that gun is dead and even though it was later cleared it could not be used.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

"Best practice" would be for the GF to keep hold of the "broken" revolver & finish the stage sequence with the functional revolver; then either ground or holster the one "shot dry" in order to have both hands free to attempt to remedy the malfunction. If the first revolver can't be fixed, the shooter then has the option declare & ground it; then reload the working firearm to finish the stage...or take the "misses" for any unfired rounds.

 

That way, there is no debate regarding whether the "declared" firearm may or may not be put back in play once it has been grounded.

 

Once a malfunction has been declared, that firearm is "out of service" for the remainder of the stage.

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

"Best practice" would be for the GF to keep hold of the "broken" revolver & finish the stage sequence with the functional revolver; then either ground or holster the one "shot dry" in order to have both hands free to attempt to remedy the malfunction. If the first revolver can't be fixed, the shooter then has the option declare & ground it; then reload the working firearm to finish the stage...or take the "misses" for any unfired rounds.

 

That way, there is no debate regarding whether the "declared" firearm may or may not be put back in play once it has been grounded.

 

Once a malfunction has been declared, that firearm is "out of service" for the remainder of the stage.

I despise that term, best practices, but otherwise I agree. This has happened to me on more than one occasion, especially when shooting cap guns. Sometimes the cylinder just needs a little push to get past a cap jam, so shoot up all the rounds in the working gun, then use both hands to try to clear the jam.

 

As a follow up question, let's say my left gun jams, I shoot the right one, then while trying to clear the gun I found it easier to put it in my right hand and clear the jam with my left. Then I forget about the switch and finish with the gun in my right hand. Is there a penalty?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

And, of course, the GF could always follow this course of action, which would be faster than first trying to do a repair to get the malfunctioning revolver working again and giving up. It certainly has the advantage of being a "known amount of time will be required to be successful."

 

1. declare a malfunction and ground bad revolver.

2. shoot good revolver until empty.

3. reload good revolver with ammo properly carried to the line

4. shoot good revolver until empty again.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

As a follow up question, let's say my left gun jams, I shoot the right one, then while trying to clear the gun I found it easier to put it in my right hand and clear the jam with my left. Then I forget about the switch and finish with the gun in my right hand. Is there a penalty?

 

Did a revolver that had not been declared malfunctioning leave a shooter's hand while cocked (and most likely with a live round under the hammer)? Then give the shooter a SDQ.

 

 

STAGE DISQUALIFICATION -

* A cocked revolver leaving the shooter’s hand (as soon as it leaves the shooter’s hand).

RO I handbook

 

 

Now, the simpler question to ask is, "Is there a penalty for GF shooting both revolvers with same hand?" That simpler situation gets a P for shooting out of category, as a single duelist. A GF is required to shoot GF or double duelist.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Widder, SASS #59054]

PWB is not only a rules guru, but also a renowned GF. His 'thinking' like a GF is probably the best advice given on this topic.

 

AND, its also what I would do.....

 

 

..........Widder

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

And, of course, the GF could always follow this course of action, which might be faster than trying to do a repair to get the malfunctioning revolver working again. It certainly has the advantage of being a "known amount of time will be required to be successful."

 

1. declare a malfunction and ground bad revolver.

2. shoot good revolver until empty.

3. reload good revolver with ammo properly carried to the line

4. shoot good revolver until empty again.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

A cursory check for the cause of the problem and a quick fix (e.g. base pin issue or simple cap jam) would be much faster than doing a reload (depending on how many rounds had been fired before the first revolver malfunctioned).

No need to ground the first revolver until it has actually been determined to be "broken" & out of service for the remainder of the stage.

 

 

Follow-up on the "which hand" question...GF is required to fire 5 rounds using each hand...to do so otherwise would be the "P" as GJ stated.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

I despise that term, best practices, ...

What verbiage would you prefer be used?

...

[Tucker McNeely]

As a very brand new FCGF using cap guns, I had this very scenario on my first FCGF shoot a couple of weeks ago. It was only one bad cap that I went around for again.

 

However, when I holstered my "empty" cap gun and attempted to clear the malfunction the TO directed me to pull out my "empty" pistol to not get a P for shooting out of category. We discussed at the ULT with our TG, also a FCGF. The correct procedure is to holster the "empty" gun and then attempt to clear the malfunctioning gun.

 

IMHO, PWB's advice isn't only "best practice", it just make sense.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

For a shooter who KNOWS the malfunction modes of his guns well, and KNOWS that the current malfunction is going to be (most of the time) faster to clear than a cartridge reload on his other gun, yep, go ahead and work on the problem after shooting first gun dry.

 

For a cap gun, well, it's usually all or nothing. You are not going to reload to fix the problem. For that, you know you are going to try to clear the malfunction, until such time as you start costing yourself more time on the clock than the remaining rounds not fired will cost you. If clearing the malfunction on a deep-action cap jam, for example, will cost you fifteen seconds most of the time, and you have already fired three rounds successfully - well, on average you are much better off just taking the misses immediately.

 

Malfunction recovery is something that varies, depending upon your situation. There is no perfect answer that is best for all situations. It's a real time judgement of what is likely to cost you the least.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Blackey Cole]

First there is no set way the gfer needs to fire the revolvers perfectly legal to pull both fire one then fire the other although alternating if usually faster. If he declares the one malfunctioning then the preferred process is to hold it safely fire the other holster the working unless the shooter plans on reloading the working revolver to advoid any misses. In that case they need to ground the bad gun safely.

 

Handing off the malfunctioning gun has been determined to be not the idea solution if grounding safely is possible.

[Null N. Void]

Thank you for the answers. It has clarified for me what I need to do when I'm running a timer and a GF has this issue.

 

NNV

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

 

 

However, when I holstered my "empty" cap gun and attempted to clear the malfunction the TO directed me to pull out my "empty" pistol to not get a P for shooting out of category.

 

TO gave you incorrect instructions that impeded your stage and time. You should have been offered a reshoot.

 

 

 

Unfortunately, Gunfighter style shooting is misunderstood by a large percentage of our TOs right now. IMHO, this thread shows that better knowledge is needed (perhaps given by additions to the RO I class) on the part of many TOs to understand both the rules and the best ways to "safely assist a Gunfighter through the stage." As much as it pains me to think of having the RO I class be even longer....

 

Good luck, GJ