Orient Express Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Hi all, Is there much of a difference in development between the Win 97 and modern day pumps (eg Mossberg 500/590 or Remington 870), other than the exposed hammer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackey Cole Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Yes reliability, mechanics, amount of force required to operate, just like they are differences between a ford and a Chevy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Howdy Yes, other than the internal hammer, the successor to the Model 1897, the Winchester Model 12 (originally called the Model 1912 for the year it was introduced) is quite different inside than a '97. For one thing, you don't have that massive carrier that drops down on the '97. The carrier of the Model 12 is a much slimmer affair. Pretty much everything else inside the Model 12 is different too. About the only thing that is the same with the Model 1897 and the Model 12 is the single action bar. When Remington brought out the 870 it was aimed squarely at the Model 12 market. First off, the 870 employed stamped steel parts for much of its construction instead of the machined parts of the Model 12. This made the 870 much less expensive to produce than the Model 12. And the 870 used dual action bars, claiming two was better than one. Being a diehard Model 12 enthusiast, I beg to disagree. But by 1964 the 870 had nailed the last nail in the coffin of the Model 12 and production of the Model 12 ceased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ T. Sites Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 I was just comparing how far my 97 ejects compared to my mossberg 835 only will throw a shell 2 to 3 feet. The 97 5 to 7feet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Idaho Coyote' Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 That Model 12 is just a pretty shotgun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bullweed Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Modern pumps like the 870, Mossbergs and BPS lock the bolt directly to the barrel. Receivers can be lightened. Benelli even makes use of a 'plastic' receiver since the pressuee is contained within the barrel and interlocked bolt. Early pumps, like the 97 and 12, have bolts that are locked to the receiver and barrels that are connected to the receiver. The receiver has to be strong enough, and the loads light enouh, for the gun to stay in one piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 whole lot less parts in modern shotguns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 97s are clunky and cantankerous but wonderful and delightful. Many of us love them dearly. The Model 12 is absotively posilutely the greatest pump gun of all time bar none. The 870 cannot be worn out and is a truly great gun, just does not quite have the "soul" of the M12. My favorite pump is my Mossberg 590A1 USMC Embassy special model. 8 plus one with heat shield, speed feed stock and bayonet lug it is my SHTF ace in the hole. Right now for local WB shoots my fave pump is a Maverick 88 riot gun. 8 plus one and cost me a whopping $199 at Big 5. I wish I had bought at least 3. Been trying to wear it out in local WB matches where we do not care what pump gun you run just run what ya brung. Made in USA. I do not think I am going to live long enuff to wear the thing out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Most of the basic concepts of operation are the same. But the mechanics of how the operations are done are very different. Lockup is perhaps the most different, with 97 using carrier to lock the bolt closed (pretty prone to wear), the 12 using a lockup to receiver (prone to wear and hard to repair), and modern guns locking to the barrel extension (simple, if not cheap to renew). Fire control (Hammer,Trigger, Firing Pin, Action Lock) operations - much different in the details - with the 12 perhaps being the weakest/most complicated/hardest to repair. Ejection - now much more reliable. Mag control - now much more reliable. The older designs just take more attention to cleaning, operating it properly, using ammo that is good quality - attention to the small stuff and being one with the gun. Modern designs keep getting more and more "any idiot's gun" And, then there is parts availability and how well they will just drop in. In 97s and 12s, expect a pain to find and a second pain to fit and make run for many of the parts. That includes the Chinese 97s, largely, as well. An 870 or Mossie 500/590 - parts all over the industry and they all drop right in. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 You can "slam fire" the 97! Not in CAS of course but in a defense situation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurricane Deck 100366 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 97s are clunky and cantankerous but wonderful and delightful. Many of us love them dearly. The Model 12 is absotively posilutely the greatest pump gun of all time bar none. The 870 cannot be worn out and is a truly great gun, just does not quite have the "soul" of the M12. My favorite pump is my Mossberg 590A1 USMC Embassy special model. 8 plus one with heat shield, speed feed stock and bayonet lug it is my SHTF ace in the hole. Right now for local WB shoots my fave pump is a Maverick 88 riot gun. 8 plus one and cost me a whopping $199 at Big 5. I wish I had bought at least 3. Been trying to wear it out in local WB matches where we do not care what pump gun you run just run what ya brung. Made in USA. I do not think I am going to live long enuff to wear the thing out. Love my Maverick 88. Thing has been to heck and back, dropped in a salt marsh, frozen to the ground, dropped out of the back of a UTV, left to rot for 6 months in the forward compartment of a boat, been slung on my back more times than I can count, been refinished twice and now sports a mossy oak sticker wrap. It's never failed me. It always cleans up nicely, cycles cleanly and serves me faithfully. I couldn't ask for more from a pump shotgun. I would never think to bring it to a WB match - I'm pretty sure the folks I shoot with wouldn't allow me to participate with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurricane Deck 100366 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 You can "slam fire" the 97! Not in CAS of course but in a defense situation! Why can't you slam fire the 97 in CAS matches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Why can't you slam fire the 97 in CAS matches? You can. GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurricane Deck 100366 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 You can. GJ Okay good. I thought I was missing a rule change or something! Thanks a bunch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Hombre Sin Nombre Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 I think he meant you can slam fire more than two rounds in Wild Bunch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Love my Maverick 88. Thing has been to heck and back, dropped in a salt marsh, frozen to the ground, dropped out of the back of a UTV, left to rot for 6 months in the forward compartment of a boat, been slung on my back more times than I can count, been refinished twice and now sports a mossy oak sticker wrap. It's never failed me. It always cleans up nicely, cycles cleanly and serves me faithfully. I couldn't ask for more from a pump shotgun. I would never think to bring it to a WB match - I'm pretty sure the folks I shoot with wouldn't allow me to participate with it. Well we almost never have more than 3 WB shooters out here in the Big Empty. Last Sunday there were 3 of us WBers and 4 Caboy shooters. I used the 88 and was most period correct as it has a corn cob forestock even tho black plastic like the buttstock. The other two shot 870s with plastic black furniture, modern forestocks, heck one of them had a hangy down pistol grip and AR style collapsible buttstock. We are just happy to let anyone who shows up shoot whatever 1911 or pump and most of us shoot our regular 38 main match rifles. Many many times I have been the onliest one to show up to a shoot with a 1911. This includes 5th Saturday shoots which we have advertise as WB matches for years. We figger if we allow WB Open category mebbeso more folks might try it out. So far not so much... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.