Hurricane Deck 100366 Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Okay, newbie question that I need help with. I think we got this right, but want to make SURE. Last weekend while my wife was shooting, a 'fat' round managed to make it into her rifle. The hows and whys are not important as it has been sufficiently remedied. However, it was the second round in the rifle, therefore she was able to shoot the first round the second round would not chamber and thus jammed the rifle. After a brief inspection, she put the rifle down in it's jammed state, took the 9 misses (ouch) and proceeded to complete the stage - I was very proud of how well she gathered herself up and continued to shoot. Grace under pressure for sure. Anyway. According to the SASS Rule book, Safety Practices section, rule 32: If a competitor has a firearm malfunction that cannot be cleared during the course of fire, the shooter may not leave the firing line until the firearm has been cleared. A Match Disqualification will be awarded to the shooter if they leave the firing line with the malfunctioning firearm unless under the direct supervision of a Match Official I read this as she has to clear the jam before walking to the unloading table, as did she. So as soon as she was done shooting, I helped her 'bump' the lever to clear the round while she maintained an upright and controlled muzzle. It cleared and life moved on. We should have probably waited for instructions from the TO - and he tried to instruct us to move to the unloading table, but couldn't get it out of his mouth before we had it cleared. She incurred no other penalties, the rifle was left open, but loaded with the remaining rounds as she moved it to the unloading table, where the rounds were cycled out of it gently. Should we have taken the jammed rifle to the unloading table or did we do it properly by clearing the jam at the firing line? FYI: We immediately went back to the cart and pulled a cylinder from one of the pistols and checked the fit of ALL of the ammo we had with us to shoot. Turns out this "fat" round was accidentally left on her belt during practice the day before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 The rule says do not leave the firing line with a gun issue, which includes the loading table (once you lay first gun down) and unloading table (until last gun picked up), as I recall but I am old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 RO 1 glossery of terms Firing line – From first firearm placed on the loading table until all firearms are confirmed as cleared at the unloading table. You probably should have waited for the RO before assisting another shooter though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurricane Deck 100366 Posted June 19, 2014 Author Share Posted June 19, 2014 Thank you. and yes, I should have waited for sure. I haven't made it to the RO2 handbook yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Even though it is your wife. Let the RO handle it until she gets to the loading table. Don't just jump in until then. After it gets to the unloading table. You can help you wife clear the gun and make it safe. Most times the RO will carry the gun to the unloading table to be cleared. Also. Remember. If you have something like that happen. The gun must be declared broken by SAYING. Malfunction or Broke Gun. Something in that order. Even though we all know it was. She has to say it to avoid penalty for doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Sorry, my bad, actually RO 1 glossary.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Yep, the TO is in control, so don't jump up to help the shooter unless you ask if you can do so. Your wife did great. Exactly what she should have done. In addition, she should declare "Malfunction" just so the TO knows why she is laying the gun down before the string is through. That way, with Malfunction declared, the penalty for "leaving rounds in the rifle when it leaves the shooter's hands" will not apply. The TO would normally direct her to take the malfunctioning gun to the Unloading table to clear the jam. That quickly frees the firing line to run the next shooter. Work carefully at the unloading table. Any firearm discharged accidentally at the Unloading table will carry a penalty. Don't leave the unloading table with the gun still carrying live ammunition, at most ranges! If you need some tools, you can go get them. Only with the TO's permission should you leave with a "loaded" gun. And that permission is not normally granted. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Sidebar: now is the time for your wife to get a screwknife or equivalent tool and learn how to use it. Jams happen. Be prepared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurricane Deck 100366 Posted June 19, 2014 Author Share Posted June 19, 2014 After she removed it from her shoulder and attempted to clear the jam and realized that she wasn't going to be able to clear it, she looked over at the TO who immediately came over to her, gave it a quick look and declared it a broke gun and instructed her to place it on the table and move on. Agree about the screwknife. We've talked at length about what we want to practice this evening at our range. We're going to concentrate on jams, misfires, loading from the belt (we've both jacked a good round out of the rifle) and spending time with the shotgun working on getting that first round in and not dropping the second one as the slide it actuated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 After she removed it from her shoulder and attempted to clear the jam and realized that she wasn't going to be able to clear it, she looked over at the TO who immediately came over to her, gave it a quick look and declared it a broke gun and instructed her to place it on the table and move on. That's the declaration that is needed. Transforms the "live" gun into a "broke gun." The shooter can call it, the TO can call it, same results. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Y'all all did fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 After she removed it from her shoulder and attempted to clear the jam and realized that she wasn't going to be able to clear it, she looked over at the TO who immediately came over to her, gave it a quick look and declared it a broke gun and instructed her to place it on the table and move on. Let me admit to reading what is written and taking it literally. "...the TO who immediately came over to her" caught my attention. Where was TO that he/she had to come to her? The most common error I see TOs (Chief Range Officers) making is failure to note section 4, page 5 of RO1. 4. Stay Within Arm’s Length. In order to stop an unsafe act, the Chief Range Officer must be within arm’s length of the shooter. In fact, the appropriate position for the Chief Range Officer is behind and off to the strong side of the shooter. In other words, if the shooter is right handed, the Chief Range Officer should be within arm’s length of the shooter, to the rear and right of centerline. In this way, you can see the shooter operate the gun with his or her strong hand. NEVER let the competitor get away from you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurricane Deck 100366 Posted June 20, 2014 Author Share Posted June 20, 2014 He was maybe 3 feet to her weak side. 'Immediately came over to her' means he took one step to be close enough to examine the ejection port of the rifle closely to determine what the malfunction was. This was one of the clubs most experienced and well known/trusted TO's. He was doing it right. To further remedy the 'fat round' problem, I ordered a lee Carbide Crimp die for the press at the suggestion of a fellow shooter we had lunch with that day. Since we cast our own bullets (yes, the wife casts with me!) this is used as insurance against an out of round bullet. Saved maybe 12 rounds of 800 we loaded last night. Seems like good insurance against a potential repeat of the rifle jam. I can hear someone saying "If you need that die, you're doing something wrong" - not necessarily. Since we load nothing but once-fired range brass right now, we have a mix of everything from a few starline cases all the way down to the Blazer cheap-o cases. There is a lot of variation if wall thickness and even some length. get the right combo of a slightly oversize bullet and a thick walled case (or a bullet with a flange) and you have a fat round. this solves that problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 To further remedy the 'fat round' problem, I ordered a lee Carbide Crimp die for the press at the suggestion of a fellow shooter we had lunch with that day. Since we cast our own bullets (yes, the wife casts with me!) this is used as insurance against an out of round bullet. Saved maybe 12 rounds of 800 we loaded last night. Seems like good insurance against a potential repeat of the rifle jam. I can hear someone saying "If you need that die, you're doing something wrong" - not necessarily. Since we load nothing but once-fired range brass right now, we have a mix of everything from a few starline cases all the way down to the Blazer cheap-o cases. There is a lot of variation if wall thickness and even some length. get the right combo of a slightly oversize bullet and a thick walled case (or a bullet with a flange) and you have a fat round. this solves that problem. I assume you are talking about the Lee Factory Crimp Die. You might want to explain your claim that you have out of round bullets from casting your own. Are you not sizing your slugs with a lube-sizer such as a Lyman or (even nicer) a Star/Magma sizer? You may get "fat rounds" - I don't. There IS something wrong if you can't get all your .45 Colt ammo to fit in the generous chambers of an Uberti '73 rifle - that chamber is always cut very large. This comes from loading the wildest mixture of .45 Colt cases going - lots of cases I use date back to what I got as range brass in the 1970's when I first started shooting .45 Colt. I would guess you are not crimping in a good spot, you are bulging a few cases right at the crimp, and I still don't understand how you can end up with "fat" and "flanged" bullets when you are casting your own, unless you are pan-lubing your as-cast slugs. So, continue using your FCD die, but it's indicating you have some other serious problems if it requires that die for you to make ammo that will even chamber. So, don't dismiss the conventional wisdom. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie Bentfoot Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Be VERY cautious about "bumping" the lever to get it out there have been numerious out if battery discharges by "bumping" a round stuck in the lifter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurricane Deck 100366 Posted June 20, 2014 Author Share Posted June 20, 2014 I assume you are talking about the Lee Factory Crimp Die. You might want to explain your claim that you have out of round bullets from casting your own. Are you not sizing your slugs with a lube-sizer such as a Lyman or (even nicer) a Star/Magma sizer? You may get "fat rounds" - I don't. There IS something wrong if you can't get all your .45 Colt ammo to fit in the generous chambers of an Uberti '73 rifle - that chamber is always cut very large. This comes from loading the wildest mixture of .45 Colt cases going - lots of cases I use date back to what I got as range brass in the 1970's when I first started shooting .45 Colt. I would guess you are not crimping in a good spot, you are bulging a few cases right at the crimp, and I still don't understand how you can end up with "fat" and "flanged" bullets when you are casting your own, unless you are pan-lubing your as-cast slugs. So, continue using your FCD die, but it's indicating you have some other serious problems if it requires that die for you to make ammo that will even chamber. So, don't dismiss the conventional wisdom. Good luck, GJ Yes, I'm talking about the FCD. I don't shoot 45 colt (I shoot 38) I don't shoot a 73 (I shoot a 92) the 125gr RNFP's I cast drop from the mold at .358 with the alloy I use. I tumble lube with Alox and have great success - not everyone has success with LAL, I get that, but I do. I also have excellent results using other homebrew lubes. I don't necessarily crimp in the groove. I crimp for OAL as I was taught. needing this die is NOT an indication of a "serious problem" and to think that is just silly. It's just insurance. This die just normalizes rounds, nothing more. I do load lead 45ACP rounds. Never had a round fail to chamber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Ok, loading unsized bullets can open up the problems you see. Sorry about the .45 colt comments and 73 rifle - must be thinking of some other shooter. Most still apply, just not the "generous chamber" stuff. No need to crimp in the groove (I don't crimp in the groove in any round I load because I want the OAL right). If you don't use the groove, it usually is necessary to be extra careful that you don't push up bulges right behind the mouth of the case that can be caused by not getting the crimp just right, especially with slightly-long cases. A Lee FCD die is not wrong, it's just that many folks hide some real problems with their loading techniques when they suppose that it "solves all their problems". Believing that "they are just normalizing" their rounds with a Lee FCD has gotten several pards right on this Wire into the situation of having reliability problems with their ammo, costing them some match placings that they wish they could have achieved, had it not been for some balky ammo. My comments have been oriented toward helping you avoid that. Not anything more. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Cent Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Hurricane Deck, is your watch running good now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 If you're using Alox for lube you might consider getting a Lee bullet sizing die to take care of out-of-round bullets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurricane Deck 100366 Posted June 20, 2014 Author Share Posted June 20, 2014 Hurricane Deck, is your watch running good now? A thousand comedians out of work and you're trying' ta be funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 I use and like the Lee final crimp die. I began using it for insurance against that rare one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 HD, Had a similar issue with a 38 spcl at a practice session. Round wouldn't fully chamber in the wife's P jr but would in my Vaquero. I now use a L.E. Wilson Case Gauge. Ensure that the rounds will fit in any of 6 revolvers and 2 rifles. Dillon also sells one. Insert the round into the gauge and if it passes then it goes into the loading block. While it is in the gauge I also feel for a high primer. Rounds that do not pass muster I set aside for closer inspection as to what the problem is at a later time. I also randomly check rounds as they come out of the press for OAL as well as passing the case gauge test. Like you I have a multitude of head stamps and sometimes I find a piece of range brass that passes a visual inspection but is slightly out of spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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