Major Hazzard, SASS #23254 Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 Well after several years of absence I've circled back to the fire. Learned a lot about guns that cock themselves and how to scurry around with them, but now it's time to relax and just have some fun. I want to try this cowboy stuff again. So, I'd appreciate some help sorting out all that's out there for pistols, then I'll worry about shotguns. I still have a couple good rifles. I hear the Colt folks aren't building many Single Action Army pistols these day, and somewhere during my time away USFA quit making them too. So, I'm looking at what's left in the replica SAA offerings. Looks like there's more choices than there was ten years ago. I read some have proper color case hardening, some have some sort of chemical treatment. Some have hammer mounted firing pins and some have transfer bars. Some have Colt's patent dates along the side of the frame and some don't. Old frames and pre-war frames, some are made by Uberti, some by Pietta. If a fellow wanted proper CCH, hammer mounte firing pins and preferred patent dates, what would be his best bet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 If a fellow wanted proper CCH, hammer mounte firing pins and preferred patent dates, what would be his best bet? A used 2nd Gen. We just talked about this yesterday, they are out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Hazzard, SASS #23254 Posted March 2, 2014 Author Share Posted March 2, 2014 A used 2nd Gen. We just talked about this yesterday, they are out there. Pardon me, I'll be more specific. If a fellow wasn't ready to spend $3,000 on a pair of Colts, but wanted proper CCH, hammer mounted firing pins and preferred patent dates, what would be his next-best bet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakey Merlot Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 I guess I would look at who takes Ubertis, tunes them, and color case hardens them. My understanding is the CCH on most modern reproduction pistols don't look the same as original Colt finishes, but I'm no expert or collector. IIRC, Pietta doesn't put the original Colt patent dates on their pistols (worried about copywrite lawsuits I think). I have Ubertis and Piettas and I like them both, but I'm afraid if you want as close to Colt as possible, you're going to spend almost as much as buying good used 2nd or 3rd generation Colts. Shakey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Duncan Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 Cimmarron Firearms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 I would highly suggest a pair of Taylor's Smoke Wagons. Already slicked up for ya, slightly lowered hammer and thicker front sight. Checkered grips for easy gripping. I've had a set for 5-6 years and there's no problems at all. Rye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 proper CCH OK, exactly what do you mean by 'proper CCH'? The only outfit that is still using the old fashioned bone, charcoal Case Hardening method today for Single Action revolvers is Colt. Case Hardening is a process where extra carbon is infused into the surface of relatively low carbon steel or iron. To oversimplify things a bit, steel is nothing more than iron with a very small amount of carbon added. Yes, there are other things in modern steel too, but the basics is add a small percentage of carbon to iron and you get the superior strength and hardness of steel. Traditionally gun makers used relatively low carbon steel for frames and wear parts such as hammers and triggers. The low carbon steel had the advantage of being ductile, meaning it could take a shock without shattering. But it was soft on the surface and did not have good wear qualities. So the traditional technique was to make frames from relatively soft low/medium carbon steel, then place them in a furnace with carbon bearing materials like bone or leather. When the proper temperature was reached, and the parts sat at temperature for a proscribed amount of time, a small amount of carbon would migrate into the surface of the steel, raising the carbon content and causing a thin 'case' of harder material to form. Then the parts would be quenched in oil or water. The resultant parts retained the ductility of the core material, but the thin, usually only a few thousandths thick, 'case' on the surface gave the parts superior wear characteristics. The brilliant colors of traditional Case Hardening have nothing to do with the hardness of the surface. The colors are nothing more than a byproduct of the process. In fact you can remove the colors with harsh chemicals, or even strong sunlight, but the surface hardness will remain. I have a nice 2nd Gen Colt that somebody stripped of its original finish, all the colors are gone. But the surface hardness remains. But in the 19th Century the gun buying public became enamored with the brilliant colors produced by the quenching process, so each firearms company developed their own jealously guarded techniques for producing brilliant colors. For instance, S&W always Case Hardened their hammers and triggers, and even had the process trademarked to protect them from cheap imports. During the 1920s and 30s they even stamped the Registered Trademark on their hammers. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/smith%20and%20wesson/interior%20views%20and%20parts/MampPRoundButtHammer_zps164fb140.jpg But I digress. As you have probably realized by now, the old fashioned method of Case Hardening requiring heating in a furnace with carbon bearing materials was labor intensive and expensive. The only companies producing true, old fashioned Bone Case Hardening on their Single Action revolvers were Colt and USFA. Both were high end products. USFA is now out of the Single Action revolver business, so only Colt is still doing it. S&W still has Case Hardened triggers and hammers on some of their Custom Shop revolvers, but those are not Single Actions. There are other less labor intensive ways to infuse extra carbon into the surface of relatively soft steels. These fall under the general heading of carburizing. That is what Uberti and I am pretty sure Pietta are doing to create their 'Case Hardened' finishes. Yes, these methods do infuse extra carbon into the surface of the steel. But they do not result in the brilliant colors of traditional bone Case Hardening. But they do look pretty good. Lastly, there is the surface finish that Ruger used to put on the surface of their Vaquero revolvers. Rugers are made of modern heat treatable steel, and the material is hardened to have a uniform hardness all the way through the part. Old fashioned Case Hardening is not really practical, and it would be counter productive anyway. So Ruger developed a chemical treatment to simulate the colors of Case Hardening on the Vaquero frames. No, it was not painted on as some think, it was a chemical treatment. Again, it was only cosmetic, it added no hardness to the parts. Eventually because of many complaints Ruger stopped putting these simulated colors on Vaquero frames. They are blued now. So. If you want real, old fashioned Case Hardening, your only choice is Colt. If you want something that does harden the surface and looks a lot like old fashioned Case Hardening, Uberti or Pietta will suffice. Since you want a hammer mounted firing pin, that lets Ruger out. Can't help you with patent dates, haven't kept up with it. Here is a photo of the patent dates on the one Cimarron (Uberti) Cattleman I still own. Dunno if they are still doing that, this one is a bunch of years old. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/colts/colt%20markings /CimarronCattlemanMarkings_zpsb241fee4.jpg Here are the patent dates and the rampant Colt on one of my 2nd Gen Colts. You ain't gonna get the little Colt on any replica, that is a Registered Trademark of Colt and Colt will sue the pants off of any company that stamps one onto their guns. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/colts/colt%20markings/ColtVerifiedProof.jpg By the way, the Cattleman has the typical Uberti case hardened finish on it. It is pretty blotchy. This is going to vary from gun to gun. The Colt has real Bone Case Hardening. This gun is about 40 years old and the colors have faded a bit over time. Sights: 2nd Gen and 3rd Gen Colts have nice squared off rear sights, very similar to what you will find on a Ruger. Or vice versa. Most of the replicas attempt to mimic the original design so many of them have a narrow 'V' groove rear sight, that is not as easy to see as the square 2nd Gen sight. This may vary with different product lines, I have not kept up with it. Lastly, you might as well know about Black Powder frames. The original design of the SAA did not use the transverse, spring loaded latch that we are used to for retaining the cylinder pin. The original design was a small screw below the pin that angled up through the frame to hold the pin in place. Around 1892 or so Colt began replacing this with the spring loaded latch that we are familiar with today. The term Black Powder frame is used for the earlier design with the little screw. With modern production guns this has nothing to do with whether or not the gun can be fired with Smokeless powder, it is just a label. All modern Single Action revolvers are made of modern steel and are safe to use with SAAMI spec Smokeless ammo, whether the 'Black Powder' frame or the more modern spring loaded latch. P.S. Here are some links to comparative photos of different types of frame finishes. Bear in mind that these are just a few samples, individual guns can vary greatly. A 2nd Gen Colt. The colors are probably not as brilliant as when it was first made in 1975, they have probably faded a bit. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/Case%20Hardening%20Comparison/colorcaseColt_zps130cfc2f.jpg Cimarron (Uberti) Cattleman http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/Case%20Hardening%20Comparison/colorcaseCimarron_zps5a6c786c.jpg 'original model' Ruger Vaquero (no longer manufactured) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/Case%20Hardening%20Comparison/colorcaseVaquero_zpsad471a55.jpg Ruger New Vaquero with no longer produced 'color finish' http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/Case%20Hardening%20Comparison/colorcaseNewVaquero_zps755ce235.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Rider Rudy Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 I would highly suggest a pair of Taylor's Smoke Wagons. Already slicked up for ya, slightly lowered hammer and thicker front sight. Checkered grips for easy gripping. I've had a set for 5-6 years and there's no problems at all. Rye +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Go West Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Pietta makes a very good gun at a good price. I paid less than half for a pair of pistols vs. one Colt that are said to be a close copy of a 2nd generation. I won't bicker about that. They are very fun pistols and have been reliable to boot. I wouldn't mind a Colt or a pair, but it would take a major reduction in my safe to afford said pistols. If I had the money today, I would buy another pair of Piettas. I am not a top shooter, but I would bet that one of them could place at the top using them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Key Hay Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 I would watch the classified. Got my son in law a nice pair of Cattleman all worked and engraved for a nice price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Hazzard, SASS #23254 Posted March 3, 2014 Author Share Posted March 3, 2014 Thanks to all for a lot of great advice and information. I really appreciate everyone's help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shorty Jack Hammer Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 I really love my Uberti El Patrons with improper CCH :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chili Ron Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Howdy, I think the answer to your question is NOBODY. A while back I was looking into the idea of buying colts. I found a good pard who allowed me to shoot his colts side by side with my rugers and it was really hard to tell much difference shooting. And isn't shooting what its all about? From other shopping the Great Western II looks and feels like the colts. And Ive heard that GW II will interchange some parts with colts. So a GW II with the right marking might be one way to go. And SASS vaqueros are called SASS vaqueros for a reason. Best CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Henry Quick Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 I really love my Uberti El Patrons with improper CCH :-) +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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