"Expeditor" handling of LONG GUNS on the firing line

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

 

Should someone other than the competitor open the action of the gun, any penalties that would have been incurred will still apply.

 

Any other handling of a firearm by someone other than the competitor does NOT negate any penalties (e.g. moving it from the stage to the unloading area).

 

[Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L]

Thank you for clarification.

 

KK

[Most Wanted]

That was quick and the answer I was looking for . Thanks

[Captain Bill Burt]

That was quick and the answer I was looking for . Thanks

+1 It makes sense.

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

The ROC is back on my Christmas card list. Thank you

[Key Hay]

Was wondering about that!

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

IMO, still not a very good situation if the 'violation' cannot be shown to the shooter.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

I think that is a good call. If an expeditor opens the action, it is like opening Crackerjacks. Could be empty, could have a live round, could have a piece of brass. Most likely empty. We need to have folks with a bit of experience doing the expediting job or explain the job before they start if they are new shooters. Make certain expeditor maintains muzzle control. Have seen a lot of expeditors sweeping brass pickers, TO, spotters, shooter, etc.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

IMO, still not a very good situation if the 'violation' cannot be shown to the shooter.

 

Since there is no longer a penalty for the CLOSED ACTION, the only 'violation' would be for a round (empty or unfired) remaining somewhere in the chamber/action/magazine...any of which will still incur a penalty.

...which is why, if noticed (or if unable to ascertain because the action is CLOSED) the "new" protocol is for ONLY THE SHOOTER to handle (open and/or clear) the firearm under the observation of the T/O.

 

Failure of a "helper" to follow that procedure will NOT negate the penalties for ammo/hulls remaining...nor will it open the door for a "buddy" to help a pard by handling a long gun in a "compromised" condition thinking that the penalties will be nullified by doing so.

 

If a shooter suspects that a "helper" somehow sabotaged his match by dropping ammo/brass/hulls into his firearm on the firing line in order to assess a penalty, it would appear that there are other "issues" to be dealt with on that range.

JMHO

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

PW,

I totally agree with you there.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

I think that is a good call. If an expeditor opens the action, it is like opening Crackerjacks. Could be empty, could have a live round, could have a piece of brass. Most likely empty. We need to have folks with a bit of experience doing the expediting job or explain the job before they start if they are new shooters. Make certain expeditor maintains muzzle control. Have seen a lot of expeditors sweeping brass pickers, TO, spotters, shooter, etc.

 

...and did ANYone "make the call" or point the infractions out to someone who could?

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

...and did ANYone "make the call" or point the infractions out to someone who could?

yes

[Flying W Ramrod]

Don't think I like this.

Had an "expeditor", one of the posse who was carrying long guns from the stage to the unloading table, found to be putting expended cases in the long guns of his wifes competitors.

Needless to say he isn't allowed to do any posse duties and no one wants to shoot on his or his wifes posse anymore.

How can you honestly say if there was or was not a round/case in the long gun if someone else handles it?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

yes

 

good!

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Don't think I like this.

Had an "expeditor", one of the posse who was carrying long guns from the stage to the unloading table, found to be putting expended cases in the long guns of his wifes competitors.

Needless to say he isn't allowed to do any posse duties and no one wants to shoot on his or his wifes posse anymore.

How can you honestly say if there was or was not a round/case in the long gun if someone else handles it?

 

REF post #9...and to repeat what I "said" on the Instructor Wire:

 

If some @$$hat is doing that, drag hang him.

IMO...he wouldn't be shooting at all at my home club.

 

There MUST be an element of trust in allowing someone else to handle one's firearms.

 

The "new" rule specifies that NO ONE handle the long guns on the line except the SHOOTER if the gun is noticed to be in a "compromised" condition (i.e. action closed or rounds remaining).

...and then, only under the observation of the T/O.

 

 

This is going to be an "education & training" issue to get everyone on board.

[Korupt Karl]

I think the new ruling is a good one for the sport. Rarely do I see an expeditior handling a compromised gun....it's usually the case of them pointing it out. When a shooter gets assessed a penalty if he/she gets to see it at least removes all doubt that they did incur it.

 

 

KK

[Stumpman]

What if the person, not the shooter, drops the gun?

[Yusta B.]

Then the person, not the shooter, earns them self an SDQ at minimum plus the wrath of the shooter.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

What if the person, not the shooter, drops the gun?

 

Dropped gun on the firing line is a dropped gun...doesn't matter WHOSE gun YOU drop...YOU are responsible (not making this personal, that's just for illustration)...best hope it ain't LOADED!!

(SDQ vs MDQ)

 

 

...and YOU might get yer tail chewed for doing so with MY gun.

[Stumpman]

Thanks!! Had it happen at a shoot and everyone stood around looking at each other with that deer in the headlights look. As it turned out the person who dropped the gun took the stage DQ (It was empty) and even offered the shooter his gun to drop to make things even. The shooter almost fell for it!!??

[Dirt Merchant # 61422]

Since there is no longer a penalty for the CLOSED ACTION, the only 'violation' would be for a round (empty or unfired) remaining somewhere in the chamber/action/magazine...any of which will still incur a penalty.

...which is why, if noticed (or if unable to ascertain because the action is CLOSED) the "new" protocol is for ONLY THE SHOOTER to handle (open and/or clear) the firearm under the observation of the T/O.

 

Failure of a "helper" to follow that procedure will NOT negate the penalties for ammo/hulls remaining...nor will it open the door for a "buddy" to help a pard by handling a long gun in a "compromised" condition thinking that the penalties will be nullified by doing so.

 

If a shooter suspects that a "helper" somehow sabotaged his match by dropping ammo/brass/hulls into his firearm on the firing line in order to assess a penalty, it would appear that there are other "issues" to be dealt with on that range.

JMHO

It is my understanding from the TG meeting that the rule changes will go into affect March 1? Am I wrong

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

It is my understanding from the TG meeting that the rule changes will go into affect March 1? Am I wrong

 

Match Directors have always had the option to put rule changes into effect immediately following the Summit.

 

The "official" start date has been (variously) @ EoT (until the venue/date change); 01 March, & @/following WR.

 

The WB/ROC have no issues with the approved rule/equipment changes in effect NOW.

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Does the shooter have the option of dispensing with the services of any expeditors if that is his/her preference?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Does the shooter have the option of dispensing with the services of any expeditors if that is his/her preference?

 

IMO...ALWAYS...same as requesting no coaching.

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Thanks, good enuff.

[Harvey Mushman]

Don't think I like this.

Had an "expeditor", one of the posse who was carrying long guns from the stage to the unloading table, found to be putting expended cases in the long guns of his wifes competitors.

Needless to say he isn't allowed to do any posse duties and no one wants to shoot on his or his wifes posse anymore.

How can you honestly say if there was or was not a round/case in the long gun if someone else handles it?

This individual should be dealt with MOST HARSHLY.

No one should ever be even asked to shoot on their posse, or even in a match with them, no matter the posse.

 

Minimum, I year suspension. Maximum (my preference) lifetime ban.

 

PWB, what says the ROC on something like this blatant interference and cheating?

This is not simply purposely violating a rule to get an advantage. This is blatant sabotage of competitors.

I would propose that the MD has the duty to recommend a suspension to SASS ROC if this were to happen and offender identified.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

That doesn't fall within the jurisdiction of the ROC...unless the offender is an RO Instructor.

 

The penalty for "unsportsmanlike conduct" is a MDQ.

 

I already posted my recommendation (#15)

[Harvey Mushman]

PWB,

Home club penalty doesn't do enough for someone who sabotages competitiors.

This is an international organization and should have some provision for suspension. Every other large competition sport I'm familiar with does (and what I proposed is how the national motorcylce competition group I head does it).

What options could be proposed within SASS rules?

Thanks,

Harvey

 

Edit: Could the MD make a recommendation to the Wild Bunch, if not the ROC?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

PWB,

Home club penalty doesn't do enough for someone who sabotages competitiors.

This is an international organization and should have some provision for suspension. Every other large competition sport I'm familiar with does (and what I proposed is how the national motorcylce competition group I head does it).

What options could be proposed within SASS rules?

Thanks,

Harvey

 

Edit: Could the MD make a recommendation to the Wild Bunch, if not the ROC?

YES.

I would suggest you call SASS HQ & speak to one of the WB on this subject.

I'm somewhat hindered regarding making any comments on a public forum.

[Harvey Mushman]

 

PWB,

Home club penalty doesn't do enough for someone who sabotages competitiors.

This is an international organization and should have some provision for suspension. Every other large competition sport I'm familiar with does (and what I proposed is how the national motorcylce competition group I head does it).

What options could be proposed within SASS rules?

Thanks,

Harvey

 

Edit: Could the MD make a recommendation to the Wild Bunch, if not the ROC?

YES.

I would suggest you call SASS HQ & speak to one of the WB on this subject.

I'm somewhat hindered regarding making any comments on a public forum.

Thanks PWB. Obviously, I think there should be some provision for suspension for particualrly egregious actions such as competitor sabotage or assault (threat) or battery against officials, etc. Rarely necessary, but can happen......

[Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880]

Don't think I like this.

Had an "expeditor", one of the posse who was carrying long guns from the stage to the unloading table, found to be putting expended cases in the long guns of his wifes competitors.

Needless to say he isn't allowed to do any posse duties and no one wants to shoot on his or his wifes posse anymore.

How can you honestly say if there was or was not a round/case in the long gun if someone else handles it?

Do you have first hand knowledge of this? If so, why not post his name? I see no reason not to identify someone caught red-handed doing this.

 

On the other hand the story sounds somewhat implausible. It is hard to imagine someone attempting, much less succeeding at this, even one time in view of the other posse members. Your account seems to suggest this was done repeatedly ("...wifes competitors.").