Nichols Creek, SASS #77627 Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 With the new clrification/rule, called the Rattlesnake Wrangler rule, comes a chance for the Open Category to be implemented. Since we (SASS) have now required a certain category to make their intentions known prior to the start of the match, I ask why single out just one group?? Therefore I propose: Anyone vying for the overall title at state of above SASS sanctioned matches must make their intentions known in advance to the match officials, AND, will be competing for OVERALL only and NOT eligible for placement in the regular categories. If its good enough for one group, it should be good enough for all. Just in the interest of "fairness" afterall. respectfully, N.C. (flame away) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 NO. Having an Open category was just voted down this year. And when being talked about. It was not even one page into it when MONEY AND SPONSERS came up for the people shooting in the open. Which is not what SASS is about. So because of that. I say NO NO NO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manatee Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 The TG's vote down just about everything Al. That doesn't mean it's the correct direction for our game. Western 3 Gun came along to provide room for professionals. I can't remember the last time W3G was talked about as a threat to SASS. In my view, it never was just like USPSA isn't a threat. I've been in favor of an Open category for years and I agree with this thread's author: It is an idea whose time has come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 My post on another thread. Hi Folks, In theory, an Open Category has merit. However, a CA club tried it for their annual. Hardly anyone signed up. In the end, the person responsible for awards asked a friend to sign up as there was no one of that sex shooting it and they had an award to give out. Food for thought... Regards, Allie Mo If you are proposing an Open Category, please list the specifics. What if I enter it and am the only Lady, as all of the others would rather vie for their category than take this chance. There could be many ladies that beat me (there always are...). Yet I become top Overall Lady and my place is 700+. That doesn't seem right to me. Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nichols Creek, SASS #77627 Posted May 10, 2012 Author Share Posted May 10, 2012 My post on another thread. If you are proposing an Open Category, please list the specifics. What if I enter it and am the only Lady, as all of the others would rather vie for their category than take this chance. There could be many ladies that beat me (there always are...). Yet I become top Overall Lady and my place is 700+. That doesn't seem right to me. Regards, Allie Mo There are lot of things that maybe "don't seem right" lately. But basically, If you want the overall title , you shoot OPEN. If you are 700 on the list, but the only one in open,you win. How about a buckaroo that wins with time and rank but can't be the overall unless he/she basically changes category. Is that "right"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shell Belle Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Nope... Not at all... There are lot of things that maybe "don't seem right" lately. But basically, If you want the overall title , you shoot OPEN. If you are 700 on the list, but the only one in open,you win. How about a buckaroo that wins with time and rank but can't be the overall unless he/she basically changes category. Is that "right"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Frank Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 There are lot of things that maybe "don't seem right" lately. But basically, If you want the overall title , you shoot OPEN. If you are 700 on the list, but the only one in open,you win. How about a buckaroo that wins with time and rank but can't be the overall unless he/she basically changes category. Is that "right"? Maybe I do not understand the new rule clarification correctly, but I don't think that it prevents a buckeroo from still winning his category. He/she has to declare their intentions of competeing for first overall just so the ROs know that they will have to knockdown the targets. If their time is still the best of the buckeroo/buckerette class, they still win it, right??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Muerto Negro Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Could you in this open category shoot double rifle and win? I only say this because I would think not. Now not that I agree with the RW rule but I can see the point. Most would have a problem imo with losing to someone that is shooting 2 rifles when you are shooting pistols. I don't see the need for an open category. EMN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Maybe I do not understand the new rule clarification correctly, but I don't think that it prevents a buckeroo from still winning his category. He/she has to declare their intentions of competeing for first overall just so the ROs know that they will have to knockdown the targets. If their time is still the best of the buckeroo/buckerette class, they still win it, right??? YES KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nichols Creek, SASS #77627 Posted May 10, 2012 Author Share Posted May 10, 2012 Maybe I do not understand the new rule clarification correctly, but I don't think that it prevents a buckeroo from still winning his category. He/she has to declare their intentions of competeing for first overall just so the ROs know that they will have to knockdown the targets. If their time is still the best of the buckeroo/buckerette class, they still win it, right??? There is the rub. If he/she has to TAKE DOWN and not just HIT the KD's then he/she is no longer shooting buckaroo/ette rules, therefore is not competing in that category and cannot win that category. Would not that bukaroo/ette now be competing with a handicap against the others in category that only have to HIT the KD's????? So, with an answer to your question, NO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 There is the rub. If he/she has to TAKE DOWN and not just HIT the KD's then he/she is no longer shooting buckaroo/ette rules, therefore is not competing in that category and cannot win that category. NOT true, he or she are still shooting buckaroo rules just a step up and at a harder level, so why shouldn't he or she still be eligible? That's like a pard shooting FC with cap and ball pistols, if he or she wins the category they have done it at a harder level. KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nichols Creek, SASS #77627 Posted May 10, 2012 Author Share Posted May 10, 2012 NOT true, he or she are still shooting buckaroo rules just a step up and at a harder level, so why shouldn't he or she still be eligible? That's like a pard shooting FC with cap and ball pistols, if he or she wins the category they have done it at a harder level. KK Once again. He/or she IS NOT shooting buckaroo/ette rules. Buckaroo/etee must only HIT not knock down,ergo, NOT the same rules. IF a buckaroo/ette could shoot IN CATEGORY with the approaved CATEGORY RULES then said youngster WOULD still be able to win category and OVERALL, but with the RW clarification that has changed. Therefore, Wanna be OVERALL, then ALL, not just the younguns, sould declare that fact! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Once again. He/or she IS NOT shooting buckaroo/ette rules. Buckaroo/etee must only HIT not knock down,ergo, NOT the same rules. IF a buckaroo/ette could shoot IN CATEGORY with the approaved CATEGORY RULES then said youngster WOULD still be able to win category and OVERALL, but with the RW clarification that has changed. Therefore, Wanna be OVERALL, then ALL, not just the younguns, sould declare that fact! So any buckeroo or Buckerette that knock down targets (shotgun or pistol) are penalized for shooting out of category, (unless the enact the WR rule) thats what your saying because their are a few that shoot that way. KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Frank Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 There is the rub. If he/she has to TAKE DOWN and not just HIT the KD's then he/she is no longer shooting buckaroo/ette rules, therefore is not competing in that category and cannot win that category. Would not that bukaroo/ette now be competing with a handicap against the others in category that only have to HIT the KD's????? So, with an answer to your question, NO! Don't all other shooters (non-buckeroo) have the same handicap when shooting against a buckeroo for first overall? This is what the rule clarification is trying to fix. You can't have it both ways. If it isn't fair for a buckeroo to have to knockdown targets when others in category don't, then how is it fair for a buckeroo to win overall without knocking down the targets that all others do? It's likely a needless argument anyways. If a buckeroo is good enough to compete for first overall, having to knockdown the targets will most likely not prevent them from winning their category. BTW- I think that it is great that we have a young shooter that is good enough that the rules have to be re-written. This is a natural progression in all sports. Rules are not made to cover seemingly impossible scenarios; until someone comes along and does the impossible... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nichols Creek, SASS #77627 Posted May 10, 2012 Author Share Posted May 10, 2012 So any buckeroo or Buckerette that knock down targets (shotgun or pistol) are penalized for shooting out of category, (unless the enact the WR rule) thats what your saying because their are a few that shoot that way. KK Nope not at all..Because they DO NOT have to take down shotgun KD's. Therefore they are not penalized. The said shooter has an option. AND unles they invoke the now famous RW clarification BEFOREHAND, they cannot be considered for the overall, because they DO NOT have to take down the KD's, if they do or not makes no difference. KK you and I will probably just have to agree to disagree until there is a clarification of the clarification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nichols Creek, SASS #77627 Posted May 10, 2012 Author Share Posted May 10, 2012 Don't all other shooters (non-buckeroo) have the same handicap when shooting against a buckeroo for first overall? This is what the rule clarification is trying to fix. You can't have it both ways. If it isn't fair for a buckeroo to have to knockdown targets when others in category don't, then how is it fair for a buckeroo to win overall without knocking down the targets that all others do? It's likely a needless argument anyways. If a buckeroo is good enough to compete for first overall, having to knockdown the targets will most likely not prevent them from winning their category. BTW- I think that it is great that we have a young shooter that is good enough that the rules have to be re-written. This is a natural progression in all sports. Rules are not made to cover seemingly impossible scenarios; until someone comes along and does the impossible... BF you got it. Overall cannot be won by a buckaroo/ette shooting under the rules of their category. Therefore when a shooter invokes the RW rule he/she has basically removed themselves from the rules ALL OTHER buckaroo/ettes are playing by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COLORADO JACKSON Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 There is the rub. If he/she has to TAKE DOWN and not just HIT the KD's then he/she is no longer shooting buckaroo/ette rules, therefore is not competing in that category and cannot win that category. Would not that bukaroo/ette now be competing with a handicap against the others in category that only have to HIT the KD's????? So, with an answer to your question, NO! Nichols you bring up some mighty valid arguments....it may seem the new "clarification", may need some "clarification"....Thanks for stirring the pot...I totally agree with you....CJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 BF you got it. Overall cannot be won by a buckaroo/ette shooting under the rules of their category. Therefore when a shooter invokes the RW rule he/she has basically removed themselves from the rules ALL OTHER buckaroo/ettes are playing by. Hi Nichols, I do not see it that way. I think you are reading things into the clarification that are not stated. We have a Buckaroo out this way who always insisted on taking down the KDs and hitting the fliers or he expected a miss added to his score. Any Buckaroo/Buckarette can do that. Any of them can also shoot main match guns. There is no rule AGAINST it. The clarification just says that if they are going for Overall they must do certain things, not that they cannot shoot or win Buckaroo/Buckarette. Please, Misty, let me know if my thinking is correct. Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nichols Creek, SASS #77627 Posted May 10, 2012 Author Share Posted May 10, 2012 Nichols you bring up some mighty valid arguments....it may seem the new "clarification", may need some "clarification"....Thanks for stirring the pot...I totally agree with you....CJ Thanks for your understanding, we seem to have gone of on a tanget. My OP was thta if declaring a run for overall is good for one group it should be good enough for all. That is why the time for a OPEN CATEGORY has come. Announce your intentions for overall and shoot open, and leave the other categories to place where they may. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Hi Nichols, I do not see it that way. I think you are reading things into the clarification that are not stated. We have a Buckaroo out this way who always insisted on taking down the KDs and hitting the fliers or he expected a miss added to his score. Any Buckaroo/Buckarette can do that. Any of them can also shoot main match guns. There is no rule AGAINST it. The clarification just says that if they are going for Overall they must do certain things, not that they cannot shoot or win Buckaroo/Buckarette. Please, Misty, let me know if my thinking is correct. Regards, Allie Mo Allie MO, Thank you that is exactly what it means, any Buckaroo or Buckerette that can hit all fliers and knock all Shotgun down, is shooting at a tougher level and therefore shouldn't be penalized for doing so. KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nichols Creek, SASS #77627 Posted May 10, 2012 Author Share Posted May 10, 2012 Hi Nichols, I do not see it that way. I think you are reading things into the clarification that are not stated. We have a Buckaroo out this way who always insisted on taking down the KDs and hitting the fliers or he expected a miss added to his score. Any Buckaroo/Buckarette can do that. Any of them can also shoot main match guns. There is no rule AGAINST it. The clarification just says that if they are going for Overall they must do certain things, not that they cannot shoot or win Buckaroo/Buckarette. Please, Misty, let me know if my thinking is correct. Regards, Allie Mo But the rules do not say that buckaroo MUST take down KD"s etc. As far as any can do the same,I agree, its a matter of choice, BUT it's not a matter of rules of the category. IF A BUCKAROO/ETTE FOLLOW THE RULES OF THE CATEGORY, HOW COULD THEY WIN OVERALL WITHOUT INVOKING THE RW CLARIFICATION WHICH REMOVES SOME OF THE RULES OF THE BUCK/ETTE CATEGORY????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 But the rules do not say that buckaroo MUST take down KD"s etc. As far as any can do the same,I agree, its a matter of choice, BUT it's not a matter of rules of the category. IF A BUCKAROO/ETTE FOLLOW THE RULES OF THE CATEGORY, HOW COULD THEY WIN OVERALL WITHOUT INVOKING THE RW CLARIFICATION WHICH REMOVES SOME OF THE RULES OF THE BUCK/ETTE CATEGORY????? It isn't removeing any rules it is clarifing the rule that if they want to be in the running for Overall that must do this instead of that. KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacknife Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 IF A BUCKAROO/ETTE FOLLOW THE RULES OF THE CATEGORY, HOW COULD THEY WIN OVERALL WITHOUT INVOKING THE RW CLARIFICATION WHICH REMOVES SOME OF THE RULES OF THE BUCK/ETTE CATEGORY????? So they will be shooting the same game as other shooters, That is easy to figger out, or I thought it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Headache GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nichols Creek, SASS #77627 Posted May 10, 2012 Author Share Posted May 10, 2012 So they will be shooting the same game as other shooters, That is easy to figger out, or I thought it was. Exactly. Or maybe A buck/ette may still win category and overall (if they go "Rattlesnake")but not using the buck/ette rules for KD's. How's that??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Exactly. Or maybe A buck/ette may still win category and overall (if they go "Rattlesnake")but not using the buck/ette rules for KD's. How's that??? Ding ding ding ding ding ding ding BINGO. KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nichols Creek, SASS #77627 Posted May 10, 2012 Author Share Posted May 10, 2012 It isn't removeing any rules it is clarifing the rule that if they want to be in the running for Overall that must do this instead of that. KK Kinda like saying'IF they want to go for overall they can still be in a buck/ette category but must shoot by junior rules"? I can live with that. So, it IS a rule change. But we ca call it a clarification is that sounds better., Thfe funny thing is there was no need for a claification (although has been talked about for a long time) until a certain young reptile won overall at a state match using (until recently) established buck/ette rulfes as written. So, good for one, good for all. Let all declare (not just a certain group) there intentions for overall. OPEN CATEGORY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Kinda like saying'IF they want to go for overall they can still be in a buck/ette category but must shoot by junior rules"? I can live with that. So, it IS a rule change. But we ca call it a clarification is that sounds better., Thfe funny thing is there was no need for a claification (although has been talked about for a long time) until a certain young reptile won overall at a state match using (until recently) established buck/ette rulfes as written. So, good for one, good for all. Let all declare (not just a certain group) there intentions for overall. OPEN CATEGORY The only clarification was to define what was required to win overall, if you are shooting Buck/ette, that is it nothing more nothing less. KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painted Filly Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 How about this thought. If they win overall doesn't that mean they won their category? Why would they not be eligible for the category? They shot at a higher level. Painted Filly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 With the new clrification/rule, called the Rattlesnake Wrangler rule, comes a chance for the Open Category to be implemented. Since we (SASS) have now required a certain category to make their intentions known prior to the start of the match, I ask why single out just one group?? Therefore I propose: Anyone vying for the overall title at state of above SASS sanctioned matches must make their intentions known in advance to the match officials, AND, will be competing for OVERALL only and NOT eligible for placement in the regular categories. If its good enough for one group, it should be good enough for all. Just in the interest of "fairness" afterall. respectfully, N.C. (flame away) The cowboy category is alraedy an OPEN Category, if you mean something different then define what you mean by OPEN. KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nichols Creek, SASS #77627 Posted May 10, 2012 Author Share Posted May 10, 2012 The cowboy category is alraedy an OPEN Category, if you mean something different then define what you mean by OPEN. KK Anyone vying for the overall title at state of above SASS sanctioned matches must make their intentions known in advance to the match officials, AND, will be competing for OVERALL only and NOT eligible for placement in the regular categories. REF post#1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Anyone vying for the overall title at state of above SASS sanctioned matches must make their intentions known in advance to the match officials, AND, will be competing for OVERALL only and NOT eligible for placement in the regular categories. REF post#1 Then call it the Top Gun Category. KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nichols Creek, SASS #77627 Posted May 10, 2012 Author Share Posted May 10, 2012 Then call it the Top Gun Category. KK That would work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Frank Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Hi Nichols, I do not see it that way. I think you are reading things into the clarification that are not stated. We have a Buckaroo out this way who always insisted on taking down the KDs and hitting the fliers or he expected a miss added to his score. Any Buckaroo/Buckarette can do that. Any of them can also shoot main match guns. There is no rule AGAINST it. The clarification just says that if they are going for Overall they must do certain things, not that they cannot shoot or win Buckaroo/Buckarette. Please, Misty, let me know if my thinking is correct. Regards, Allie Mo This is the way that I see it also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 The focus of this thread is on a Top shooter. The reasoning behind the "ruling" seems to be mostly that Buckeroo/Buckerette are not shooting the same game. If this is so, should they be considered as placing ANYWHERE in the overall list as they effect the RANK SCORE of all shooters shooting slower than them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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