Silver Sam, SASS #34718L Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 This was discussed in other posts, but after receiving several help offers I decide to post this alone..... First Off, Thank You to Everyone that has offered me the Loan of a .45 cal 1911 so I could participate in SASS sanctioned Wild Bunch Shooting. But My personal reason is Not because I cant Buy my own .45 (I've owned 2 .45 cal. 1911's in the past and own 2 non .45 1911's now) The simple Fact is that I Cant Safely Shoot a .45 because of medical reasons (4 doctors and 7 operations have yet to fix) and I promise you I tried for 2 years to come up with a Load that I could Handle, it did'nt work! Here are The Facts as I see em! In CAS if you have a handicap that keeps you from participating then adjustments can and will be made, so that anyone that wants to play can.... and that's how it should be.... In WB if you have a handicap that precludes you from safely shooting a 45 caliber handgun, then Your Out, Period, End of conversation! Allowing an Open class would be a simple solution, then anyone regardless of the reason could participate. But SASS wont consider it. I Think that position is Wrong, But SASS has basically told Me to Go Away!! Thats how it Is.... Thanks again to all that have offered Help, But The only acceptable solution in my mind is for SASS to change their mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest diablo slim shootist Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 And that is the reason I will all ways offer a open class for you and anyone else to shoot at our range.We also offer 2&3 gun SASS categories for people who are just starting out in SASS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlands Bob #61228 Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 At the local club level, we make can accomodations as needed so that anyone who wants to play, can. At State and above sanctioned Wild Bunch matches, the rules have to be strictly enforced. Otherwise there will be those that take advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goody, SASS #26190 Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Sam, you know that I feel for you. But I will try and defend the process for the new WBAS rules. It is not CAS, but it is the same fine folks who bring us SASS. There are many, myself included, that feel as though CAS has gotten very far away from the original concept. In an attempt to let everyone play and have an equal chance the rules are intentionally lax. Let me preface this with the statement that I had nothing to do with the formation of the rules nor was I consulted. I feel that when the framers were putting together the rules for WBAS they decided that we would have a definite standard from the get go. It isn't just the 45 caliber, it is 180 grain minimum bullets and a power factor of 150. I don't think this will ever change, and quite frankly hope that the official rules do not. I also hope that they never begin age brackets. There are many venues holding matches at a less than state level that have some sort of Open category. One other option is to learn to shoot the pistol left handed. I know that when the boys up around Clarksville were contemplating shooting WB they came to the conclusion that shooting the pistol left handed was the quickest, most efficient way to go about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildcat O'Shea SASS#47844 Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 I just took my Wild Bunch R.O. course this winter, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you can shoot a smaller caliber if you want. You just aren't eligible for score. The "match DQ" for illegal equipment is not a safety DQ, and you can finish the match etc. Your scores just wouldn't be entered. As a couple of gentlemen have already mentioned at the club level, I don't think anyone would bar you from shooting something else, if it let you compete. I just double checked and you could compete at any level, but your score wouldn't count. See the SASS Wild Bunch Range Operations manual page 6. "Illegal" equipment or firearms is a Match DQ for scoring purposes only. No buckle but you get to shoot. Happy trails Wildcat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Come On Christmas Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 And that is the reason I will all ways offer a open class for you and anyone else to shoot at our range.We also offer 2&3 gun SASS categories for people who are just starting out in SASS Bravo Diablo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sam, SASS #34718L Posted March 12, 2012 Author Share Posted March 12, 2012 I just took my Wild Bunch R.O. course this winter, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you can shoot a smaller caliber if you want. You just aren't eligible for score. The "match DQ" for illegal equipment is not a safety DQ, and you can finish the match etc. Your scores just wouldn't be entered. As a couple of gentlemen have already mentioned at the club level, I don't think anyone would bar you from shooting something else, if it let you compete. I just double checked and you could compete at any level, but your score wouldn't count. See the SASS Wild Bunch Range Operations manual page 6. "Illegal" equipment or firearms is a Match DQ for scoring purposes only. No buckle but you get to shoot. Happy trails Wildcat I already do shoot at the Club Level and have for years. At State & Above I'd be quite Happy if what you say were True.... But I've already been chased off at a State Match once... And have been told by several that if you show up with the wrong equipment you wont be allowed to shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack, SASS #20451 Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 SS DELETED. I spoke out of turn. Sorry !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sam, SASS #34718L Posted March 12, 2012 Author Share Posted March 12, 2012 Silver Sam: Whomever "chased you off" at a SASS sanctioned WBAS match for illegal equipment was WRONG !!! As Wildcat said you get to shoot, but not for score. The ONLY illegal item that is a true MDQ is ammunition over the SASS velocity limit. All state and above matches MUST follow the WBAS rules. If there is a violation on the part of the MD contact Pecos Clyde and he will make sure it doesn't happen again. Many WBAS MD's are new to the sport as we have only had a handful of WBAS RO classes and sadly many either aren't aware they are posted or don't read the rules. Both the WBAS shooter's Handbook and the RO/MD guide are posted on the SASS website with the CAS and Mounted Handbooks. I'm sorry you had a problem: HJ WBAS Committee Chairman It was not Pecos Clyde who told me I could not Shoot the State Match when I was signed up, there and Ready to go..... But, unless I completely misunderstood him it, Pecos Clyde did PM me that I would not be able to Shoot at any State or Above SASS/WBAS match with a 38 Super 1911 I wish I'd saved the PM, but I deleted it. I Think I'm gonna download the handbook and read it from cover to cover.................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACKFOOT SASS #11947 Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Sam, you know that I feel for you. But I will try and defend the process for the new WBAS rules. It is not CAS, but it is the same fine folks who bring us SASS. There are many, myself included, that feel as though CAS has gotten very far away from the original concept. In an attempt to let everyone play and have an equal chance the rules are intentionally lax. Let me preface this with the statement that I had nothing to do with the formation of the rules nor was I consulted. I feel that when the framers were putting together the rules for WBAS they decided that we would have a definite standard from the get go. It isn't just the 45 caliber, it is 180 grain minimum bullets and a power factor of 150. I don't think this will ever change, and quite frankly hope that the official rules do not. I also hope that they never begin age brackets. There are many venues holding matches at a less than state level that have some sort of Open category. One other option is to learn to shoot the pistol left handed. I know that when the boys up around Clarksville were contemplating shooting WB they came to the conclusion that shooting the pistol left handed was the quickest, most efficient way to go about it. I'm with you on this Goody. I feel that down the road there will be some rule changes but the basics of WBAS will remain. Wild Bunch Action Shooting is not a "designed for the masses" sport. JMHO Blackfoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sam, SASS #34718L Posted March 14, 2012 Author Share Posted March 14, 2012 Happy Jack, I'm assuming that since you deleted your reply last night and since neither You or Goatneck Clem are responding to my PM's that it means I am NOT Welcome to participate in WB Matches... Is That Correct ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goatneck Clem Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Silver Sam You are always welcome to shoot WB in Cleburne, Tx with Lone Star or C V V at the monthly matches and shoot open class. You can join us at the State Match and shoot the WB side match with your 1911 .45cal. Your other option is to learn to shoot with your weak hand. Its not hard to change hands. Sam I had the same issue as you with my right hand. After several operations I could not hold a pistol and shoot with my strong hand and I am right handed. So, I learned to shoot my 1911 and the rest of my pistols left handed. If I had not changed hands my pistol shooting would have ended right then. The long guns I still shoot right handed. Goatneck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Hello, Am I missing something? Are you asking for an accomodation to shoot duelist? Why not shoot in the Modern category and use two hands to grip the pistol? Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanga Loca Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Hello, Am I missing something? Are you asking for an accomodation to shoot duelist? Why not shoot in the Modern category and use two hands to grip the pistol? Regards, Allie Mo I think he's talking about the power factor and caliber requirements Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manatee Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Sam: I tend to agree with your sentiments on WB. Frankly, I was fairly excited about the whole WB addition to our game, but then we seemed to get hung up on power factors, large caliber rifles and bullet weight. In my view we went from the "inclusionary" concept of SASS to an "exclusionary", testosterone-oriented hybrid that didn't (and still doesn't) make a lot of sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sam, SASS #34718L Posted March 14, 2012 Author Share Posted March 14, 2012 Silver Sam You are always welcome to shoot WB in Cleburne, Tx with Lone Star or C V V at the monthly matches and shoot open class. You can join us at the State Match and shoot the WB side match with your 1911 .45cal. Your other option is to learn to shoot with your weak hand. Its not hard to change hands. Sam I had the same issue as you with my right hand. After several operations I could not hold a pistol and shoot with my strong hand and I am right handed. So, I learned to shoot my 1911 and the rest of my pistols left handed. If I had not changed hands my pistol shooting would have ended right then. The long guns I still shoot right handed. Goatneck Oh I wish it were That Simple...... I already have switched to my Left Hand, with it I can handle a 38 With my Strong Hand a 22 is a Handful Have you ever watched me try to shoot Gunfighter... Goody will attest it's Quite Funny! Anywho......... I'll just continue to shoot at the Club level and You Guys shooting at the Big Matches Have Fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sam, SASS #34718L Posted March 14, 2012 Author Share Posted March 14, 2012 Sam: I tend to agree with your sentiments on WB. Frankly, I was fairly excited about the whole WB addition to our game, but then we seemed to get hung up on power factors, large caliber rifles and bullet weight. In my view we went from the "inclusionary" concept of SASS to an "exclusionary", testosterone-oriented hybrid that didn't (and still doesn't) make a lot of sense to me. Manatee, Yep! Nearly 7 years ago Goody and I wrote the Rules for "Texas Wild Bunch" that we used here at a couple of the Clubs in N. Texas until SASS decided that it would be another way for them to make some more money. We Had a Blast... 1911's, Lugers, Broomhandles even DA revolvers... It was Tons of fun for Everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880 Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Sam: I tend to agree with your sentiments on WB. Frankly, I was fairly excited about the whole WB addition to our game, but then we seemed to get hung up on power factors, large caliber rifles and bullet weight. In my view we went from the "inclusionary" concept of SASS to an "exclusionary", testosterone-oriented hybrid that didn't (and still doesn't) make a lot of sense to me. Manatee: I have to respectfully disagree. This event was conceived as one with a power factor and the additional challenge that the power factor presents. I don't think it fair to simply dismiss the event as "testosterone-oriented." Depending on where you look, the original military round had a power factor of 185-195 with a 230gr bullet, the Wild Bunch power factor of 150 is much different (weaker), while maintaining the challenge that comes with some degree of recoil. I won't criticize any shooter who shoots any legal SASS load in a cowboy action match but I do wish SASS had created or maintained a category with a power factor requirement greater than 60. They could have done that with Classic Cowboy, but they blew it, IMO. The present power factor in WB allows a Silver Senior woman, Two Sons, to kick most of the men's butts. I'm sorry that there are those that can't handle the existing requirements but I am dead set against any watering down of the rules to make WB just another poof-tink match. I think "exclusionary" is an overused buzz-word, it connotes some sort of evil intent to many. The fact is that any event requiring a threshhold degree of physical capability will be one in which someone will not be able to compete. That is just a fact of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sam, SASS #34718L Posted March 14, 2012 Author Share Posted March 14, 2012 Buffalo Dick, I can actually agree with some of what you say.... BUT. The Fact is that SASS/WBAS wont even allow a person to shoot and NOT record the time. I think some testosterone is getting in the way there! I'll go and sit over with the wimps and nerds and Ya'll Go Play .... Have Fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manatee Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Buff: I guess we are rewriting history. Before the SASS WB rules, a number of clubs had been shooting WB matches. A couple of years before, if I remember right. So, I'd dispute your use of the word "conceived". "Capitalized On" I'd agree with. And to equate Two Sons with any human is equivalent to equating Wonder Woman with Rosie O'Donnell. I've got a few friends that are involved at a high level of competitive modern shooting. It is interesting to hear them talk about the long-term physical effects of shooting high-powered pistols. Since we start out (mostly) as old men in this game, the damage might likely occur over a shorter time frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manatee Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 double tap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 When I got the WB fever, I thot I wanted to be a he-man and shoot Traditional. Those days are behind me now. I found that I cannot hold a 1911 up with one hand for 6 full stages. 3 easy, 4 maybe, 5 wobbly, and by stage 6 I would be shakin' like a dog passin' a peach pit. So I may shoot a stage or two Traditional but I know I am going to have to finish Modern, so that is how I sign up. Before much longer I may have to join Sam on the sidelines. That's ok too. I had a good run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880 Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 I've got a few friends that are involved at a high level of competitive modern shooting. It is interesting to hear them talk about the long-term physical effects of shooting high-powered pistols. Since we start out (mostly) as old men in this game, the damage might likely occur over a shorter time frame. I blame those years of shooting Champeen of the Hillbilly Nation for giving me hairy palms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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