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Dee Mak Jack, SASS #55905

45/70 Best smokeless powder ?

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I understand that there are purists and scientists.

 

...

 

For "Show" (but not accuracy as much) BP is king!

I agree with most of what you just said, except the last sentence.

I have shoot a lot of 5744 and really like it,but,

real black is much more accurate. ( in my opinion)

thats in both my trap door and roller.

 

I should add, there is a learning curve when using black.

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Yeah black powder is so inaccurate the furthest I've seen someone hit a target using it is only 1000 yards. 😳

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Redwood, did they compare, and shoot modern powder, with same bullet load, at 1000 yds? You see what I'm saying? :)

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I understand that there are purists and scientists.

 

...

 

For "Show" (but not accuracy as much) BP is king!

Made my remark more as a safety statement. For YOU, and folks near you when shooting.

FWIW: Have played some with 5744-Didn't care for it, and left tons of unburned powder in the bore, that gets worst in cold temps.

BTW: I shoot a Sharps .45-90 out to 1K yards using BP. ;)

OLG

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Unique

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Made my remark more as a safety statement. For YOU, and folks near you when shooting.

FWIW: Have played some with 5744-Didn't care for it, and left tons of unburned powder in the bore, that gets worst in cold temps.

BTW: I shoot a Sharps .45-90 out to 1K yards using BP. ;)

OLG

It's obvious safety and quality of made bullet is #1.

 

I hope to soon be out to 1000 yds accurately with BP. Still finding out what the rifle likes. So far, 500 gr and FFg it grouping within 4" at 200 yds but I can group closer with smokeless and 405 gr. I need more time to find that sugar shack for BP.

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That sounded snooty..."It's obvious"... let me rephrase that, yes safety is always #1. And when reloading, quality of bullet combined with condition of rifle is indeed the top 2 safety concerns.

 

For the record, I shot 60 rds at a Garand CMP match with AA5744, never had to clean the breech of powder. Cleaning later that afternoon, maybe 12 kernals of AA5744 residual left in the barrel. I think the burn of the powder, and what you're left with in the breech and barrel are dependent on the primer, crimping and bullet.

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Doh, can't edit my posts...replace "Bullet" with "cartridge". Jeez, I get goofy when I'm in a reloading phase. :)

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It's NOT the bullet that's the issue with the TD. It's the sudden rise of chamber psi from smokeless compared to BP.

5744 is the last powder I would run in a Garand or M1-A. It's all about port pressure.

BTW: No real reason to crimp a single shot rifle.

It's not just the primer as to why the fouling was less.

Try to get, and keep that TD group under 2 moa out to 500 yds(10", 5 shot group) if you really want to shoot 1k well.

What are you doing for fouling control. With a TD your pretty much limited to 'blow-tube'.

What bullet alloy and lube do you use with your BP loads?

Good luck,

OLG

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S60 -

You haven't mentioned much about the bullet and lube you are stuffing on top of BP loads.

 

NEED to use a BP lube, and a soft slug. If you are loading a Missouri Bullet Co slug, you have an 18 Brinell hardness bullet with smokeless hard lube. That is going to foul up your barrel real quick, destroying accuracy especially for long range. A BP type alloy will be closer to about 6 Brinell (maybe a 1:30 alloy (thats the ratio of tin to lead in the mix)), so it will expand to fit the groove diameter of barrel and give best accuracy. A great BP lube to get started with is SPG.

 

Here's one vendor who can supply a softer .45-70 slug for BP loading, using a "multi-purpose lube":

http://cowboybullets.com/45-70-cal-415-grain_p_31.html

 

Although pards who get serious about shooting BP 45-70 will almost all cast their own slugs and lube with one that works best for them.

 

Good luck, GJ

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I have good results with 3031. It is accurate out to 600 yds.

AGREED. Friend gave me a load for 45/70 that had great success for several shooters at Winter Range over the years in lever action rifle and single shot. The load was designed to propel a 400 g bullet or a 500 g bullet with same OAL at black powder average velocities in these rifles. Key was to very gently put a vegatable wad on top of the powder. This made for tightest groups by having all powder next to the primer. This is also a comfortable load to shoot. 3031 Load with wad came from an older Lyman book.

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I have been using Unique for "lite" .45-70 loads in my Win. '86, could not be happier.

Use a FIRM crimp.

Cheers,

LG

+1 Unique can do it all :-)

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AGREED. Friend gave me a load for 45/70 that had great success for several shooters at Winter Range over the years in lever action rifle and single shot. The load was designed to propel a 400 g bullet or a 500 g bullet with same OAL at black powder average velocities in these rifles. Key was to very gently put a vegatable wad on top of the powder. This made for tightest groups by having all powder next to the primer. This is also a comfortable load to shoot. 3031 Load with wad came from an older Lyman book.

Very good way to 'ring' a chamber too. Lyman learned this.

No reloading manual today, even sez to use a filler. Certainly not a hard 'wad' on top of a short powder colume.

OLG

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I like BP best but have used 5744, H4198

I have some 3031, but use it in 30-30. Need to try it in 45-70.

 

 

*4064 and 3031 will durn near work in any common rifle cartridge.

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Very good way to 'ring' a chamber too. Lyman learned this.

No reloading manual today, even sez to use a filler. Certainly not a hard 'wad' on top of a short powder colume.

OLG

I have heard that before, but shooting these loads in guns designed for a lot higher pressures, I am not concerned. If I were using an older gun like a trapdoor, I would be a lot more concerned. Lehman pulled that load because of fears folks might shoot it in guns designed for a lot lower pressures. That is what they told me when I called. My guns are a newer 1895 Marlin and a newer Shilo Sharps. Do you have any reference with the Lyman load ringing a barrel in these modern guns.

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Your guns-Your choice.

There's reason why it is not recommended in any reloading manual published today.

Just think about the pressure spike you are creating.

OLG

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Howdy- some good info, though I have to think, well, are we that hard up for entertainment that we need to resurrect thread started in 2014, which had rested in peace for a spell?

Oh Yes- 5744

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Your guns-Your choice.

There's reason why it is not recommended in any reloading manual published today.

Just think about the pressure spike you are creating.

OLG

Can you quantify the pressure spike a loose vegetable wad creates?

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Can you quantify the pressure spike a loose vegetable wad creates?

 

It's something that sporting arms ballisticians have been trying to do for many years now. That pressure spikes with over-powder wads event and rifle powder smokeless load detonation at low power levels are a couple of events that happen rarely enough that it's hard to research.

 

But when all the powder and loading manual companies say it CAN cause ringed chambers, most folks ceased using wads over smokeless powder, even the dacron tufts that used to be common.

 

Good luck, GJ

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Can you quantify the pressure spike a loose vegetable wad creates?

It's not the wad that spikes the psi. It's the bullet it slams into that causes it.

 

OLG

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I have shot 5744 with a 500 grain cast bullet with mixed results in the 45-70. For some unknown reason, in my one rifle it can group 1-1/2" at 100 yards but then hits the paper sideways at 200 yards. When I use other powders with this same bullet, I have no problems at either distance. Why does this one powder do this? By the way, I have had excellent results with 4759 but it may not be available as they were talking about discontinuing it.

 

 

…Too Tall...

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I have shot 5744 with a 500 grain cast bullet with mixed results in the 45-70. For some unknown reason, in my one rifle it can group 1-1/2" at 100 yards but then hits the paper sideways at 200 yards. When I use other powders with this same bullet, I have no problems at either distance. Why does this one powder do this? By the way, I have had excellent results with 4759 but it may not be available as they were talking about discontinuing it.

 

 

Not just talk, Hodgdon HAS STOPPED producing IMR 4759 (about a year and a half ago). I also really like 4759 in a lot of cast bullet rifle cartridge loads.

 

But, 5744 will USUALLY replace it pretty well.

 

For your long range tumbling, I'd suggest you try a larger diameter slug that more tightly fits the groove diameter, perhaps even 0.002" over groove diameter. If one powder stabilizes the slug and one doesn't, the differences are often due to bullet did not obturate well to fill grooves with one powder, or velocity is different between the two loads. A good 500 grain slug should be stable out to 800+ yards.

 

Good luck, GJ

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I will try a larger bullet to see if that cures the problem. According to the reloading books, I should be getting around 1100 fps on all loads as I dont like to hot rod. I was always curious why 5744 caused the bullets to tumble and not none of the many powders I have tried. I am sizing .001 over bore grooves at the present time. Could the lead-tin mix be too hard to obturate? Thanks, Garrison Joe.

 

 

…Too Tall...

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Could the lead-tin mix be too hard to obturate?

 

 

Would be hard to make a tin-lead alloy hard enough not to fill grooves well. A 1-20 mix might be Brinell 7 or 8? But then again, shooting 1100 FPS means you are not putting hardly any pressure in the chamber (maybe 12,000 PSI). A 1-40 alloy would be sufficient, and closer to Brinell 6. You are well down into Black Powder pressure regions, and thus need a BP type alloy even if shooting smokeless powder.

 

Good luck, GJ

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