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A slap in the face to Americans


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Out of curiosity do you agree with the use of nuclear weapons against the japs.

 

 

Why not? Are they any more dead because it used uranium or plutonium rather than a nitro based compound? One fire bomb raid on Tokyo killed just as many as the one bomb on Hiroshima. But because that was done with "conventional" weapons, it wasn't much noticed. Ultimately those two nuclear devices, because they only needed one plane to deliver each one, ended up saving far more lives than they took.

 

Look at it another way, do you agree with using nuclear weapons against Japan in order to save both Allied and Japanese lives?

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Out of curiosity do you agree with the use of nuclear weapons against the japs.

 

Yes...

 

.when I was in Japan a couple times this subject came up. At dinner, one colleque (older than me) mentioned that his dad worked at the Mitsubishi factory in Nagasaki....he then said " You know...Nagasaki....(he made an explosion gesture)"...I was silent for a moment and then replied " You know, in war both countries are responsible for doing unpeakable acts against each other...it is war.However, regardless of those things our countries, yours Japan and mine America, have become incredible allies and freinds. It seems the things that happened between our countries were bad at that time, but today...and that is where we need to focus....we are best of freinds, your country and mine"....He replied " Hm....understand".....I also said "Tanaka-san, this is not good dinner conversation" as I smiled. He agreed and we had more Wild Turkey - his favorite drink. It became mine at the time. ;)

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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Japan was told by 'us', that the bomb was coming. Our AC dropped messages to this effect many times, telling the people to leave, before we dropped the bombs.

Japan thought we were BS'n them..........

Then Japan stuck it's "head" in the ground after the first bomb was dropped. So USA dropped another one(last one we had, BTW). The war ended.

Japan started that damn war. USA :FlagAm: ended it........

End of story.

LG

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Japan was told by 'us', that the bomb was coming. Our AC dropped messages to this effect many times, telling the people to leave, before we dropped the bombs.

Japan thought we were BS'n them..........

Then Japan stuck it's "head" in the ground after the first bomb was dropped. So USA dropped another one(last one we had, BTW). The war ended.

Japan started that damn war. USA :FlagAm: ended it........

End of story.

LG

 

Correct...but while I was a guest in Japan and at dinner, I was not about to be rude and firmly express this fact to my host.

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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Correct...but while I was a guest in Japan and at dinner, I was not about to be rude and firmly express this fact to my host.

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

 

Your 'host' set you up ;)

I too have spent some time in Japan. For the most part, GREAT people!

When the same thing happened to my folks and I, as happened to you. We got up and left.......

Our leaving spoke much louder, than any words could ever have.

LG

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Your 'host' set you up ;)

I too have spent some time in Japan. For the most part, GREAT people!

When the same thing happened to my folks and I, as happened to you. We got up and left.......

Our leaving spoke much louder, than any words could ever have.

LG

 

 

Beleive me - I handled it well..there was no need to take the situation further. ...and we are friends to this day :)

 

GREAT people indeed ;) It's governments that ^%$# things up!

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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Why not? Are they any more dead because it used uranium or plutonium rather than a nitro based compound? One fire bomb raid on Tokyo killed just as many as the one bomb on Hiroshima. But because that was done with "conventional" weapons, it wasn't much noticed. Ultimately those two nuclear devices, because they only needed one plane to deliver each one, ended up saving far more lives than they took.

 

Look at it another way, do you agree with using nuclear weapons against Japan in order to save both Allied and Japanese lives?

Absolutely!

They started it.

And they reaped the whirlwind of their actions.

 

I have been to Pearl Harbor twice and to Hiroshima once.

 

In a way they got what they deserved.

 

 

Reason I asked is that some consider the use of nuclear weapons to be wrong in general.

I don't. Operation Downfall would have cost the Allies (predominantly USA) close to if not more than half a million men.

Might well have completely destroyed japan.

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Your 'host' set you up ;)

I too have spent some time in Japan. For the most part, GREAT people!

When the same thing happened to my folks and I, as happened to you. We got up and left.......

Our leaving spoke much louder, than any words could ever have.

LG

A good response would be "Benjo wa doko desska?"

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Absolutely!

They started it.

And they reaped the whirlwind of their actions.

 

I have been to Pearl Harbor twice and to Hiroshima once.

 

In a way they got what they deserved.

 

 

Reason I asked is that some consider the use of nuclear weapons to be wrong in general.

I don't. Operation Downfall would have cost the Allies (predominantly USA) close to if not more than half a million men.

Might well have completely destroyed japan.

 

No "they" didn't deserve it. Unless by they you mean the Japanese military/industrial/political complex.

The thousands of civilians didn't deserve it. Neither did the people in Coventry, Dresden, or Stalingrad.

That's the problem with wars. They're very messy.

 

The atomic strikes on Japan were a necessary evil. They saved more lives than they cost. Possibly saved the life of my dad and ensured my birth in a free world.

 

But make no mistake, it was still a very bad thing.

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A good response would be "Benjo wa doko desska?"

 

No time.....we left PDQ.

When the 'boss' of our host heard about what had happened and what was said. Our host was then fired the very next day.

The 'boss-man' was a WW2, vet. of the IJN, BTW. Didn't know about him being a IJN vet. till we got back to the 'states', a week later.

LG

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No "they" didn't deserve it. Unless by they you mean the Japanese military/industrial/political complex.

The thousands of civilians didn't deserve it. Neither did the people in Coventry, Dresden, or Stalingrad.

That's the problem with wars. They're very messy.

 

The atomic strikes on Japan were a necessary evil. They saved more lives than they cost. Possibly saved the life of my dad and ensured my birth in a free world.

 

But make no mistake, it was still a very bad thing.

 

Correct - the 'people' didn't deserve it....but the imperialistic government basically forced the atomic hand on their own people - terrible indeed.

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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I don't give free passes to civilians.

I consider them responsible for the existence of their form of government.

Yes, I know that they may not have anything that they could have done to prevent something that happened but the government existed and without any form of rebellious activities they ACCEPT the presense of that governmental form and therefore are responsible for it.

Almost all people have conscience. This conscience is what should tell them that their government is wrong do something about it.

This is part of the reason that the defense used by many nazis at the nuremberg war crime trials could not get away with the I was just following orders claim.

 

Whether you like my view on this issue or not, the peoples of all countries ARE ultimately held accountable for the actions of their governments. This happens through many different means including but limited to loss on the battlefield, targets of bombing(strategic, tactical and terrorism at least), sanctions, occupation, etc. Some of it may even be from "legal" sources.

But not much of what happens is truely legal anyway.

 

Certainly you don't give the german people a free pass also. I don't as they initially voted hitler into power. Then followed him.

This is an extremely clear example.

 

The japanese are less clear, although I personnaly have never heard of any rebellion against japanese government during ww2 nor the time leading up to it.

 

Well...

 

..I don't share your view. ;)

 

'Free pass'?....interesting

 

GG

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I don't give free passes to civilians.

I consider them responsible for the existence of their form of government.

Yes, I know that they may not have anything that they could have done to prevent something that happened but the government existed and without any form of rebellious activities they ACCEPT the presense of that governmental form and therefore are responsible for it.

Almost all people have conscience. This conscience is what should tell them that their government is wrong do something about it.

This is part of the reason that the defense used by many nazis at the nuremberg war crime trials could not get away with the I was just following orders claim.

 

Whether you like my view on this issue or not, the peoples of all countries ARE ultimately held accountable for the actions of their governments. This happens through many different means including but limited to loss on the battlefield, targets of bombing(strategic, tactical and terrorism at least), sanctions, occupation, etc. Some of it may even be from "legal" sources.

But not much of what happens is truely legal anyway.

 

Certainly you don't give the german people a free pass also. I don't as they initially voted hitler into power. Then followed him.

 

This is an extremely clear

 

 

The japanese are less clear, although I personnaly have never heard of any rebellion against japanese government during ww2 nor the time leading up to it.

 

 

I retract my previous post as it was ignorant, much like the above post.

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Well...

 

..I don't share your view. ;)

 

'Free pass'?....interesting

 

GG

 

Sir, I respect your right to disagree.

I use the term Free Pass to denote those people that are not held accountable but yet bear some responsibility for the actions of the government of the country that they are citizens of.

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Cypress Sun said

So, by your logic........YOU are responsible for my employeer's lack of work and thus my lack of cash. Thanks a lot. Boy, just wait til I get my hands on a nuke.

 

NOT A CHANCE !

 

 

YOU are clearly extremizing my views and not following the thread of MY logic.

 

As a whole the population of the USA is responsible for the actions of the US government. We are ultimately the owners.

This is not intended to make any one individual responsible for it.

So at a minimum you are just as responsible as the next guy or I for your employment situation.

That is if you can pin your employment situation on the US government may or may not be possible.

 

 

Not so, by following your logic....the folks who died in the Trade Centers, Washington and Flight 93 deserved to die. This because we are AMERICANS and live here. Get into some sort of reality.

 

Let me be clear, I have no problem with the atomic bombings on Japan. I, as an American, regret that civilians died in those attacks. I will not offer any apologies to the Japanese people for the bombings. But just because they lived there, they deserved it......not fn hardly.

 

Sun

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Not so, by following your logic....the folks who died in the Trade Centers, Washington and Flight 93 deserved to die. This because we are AMERICANS and live here. Get into some sort of reality.

 

Let me be clear, I have no problem with the atomic bombings on Japan. I, as an American, regret that civilians died in those attacks. I will not offer any apologies to the Japanese people for the bombings. But just because they lived there, they deserved it......not fn hardly.

 

Sun

 

 

 

 

Good day sir.

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I don't give free passes to civilians.

I consider them responsible for the existence of their form of government.

Yes, I know that they may not have anything that they could have done to prevent something that happened but the government existed and without any form of rebellious activities they ACCEPT the presense of that governmental form and therefore are responsible for it.

Almost all people have conscience. This conscience is what should tell them that their government is wrong do something about it.

This is part of the reason that the defense used by many nazis at the nuremberg war crime trials could not get away with the I was just following orders claim.

 

Whether you like my view on this issue or not, the peoples of all countries ARE ultimately held accountable for the actions of their governments. This happens through many different means including but limited to loss on the battlefield, targets of bombing(strategic, tactical and terrorism at least), sanctions, occupation, etc. Some of it may even be from "legal" sources.

But not much of what happens is truely legal anyway.

 

Certainly you don't give the german people a free pass also. I don't as they initially voted hitler into power. Then followed him.

This is an extremely clear example.

 

The japanese are less clear, although I personnaly have never heard of any rebellion against japanese government during ww2 nor the time leading up to it.

 

I don't know if you are responding to my post or not but I'm not really following your train of thought. I seems you're saying that civilians who do not rebel against their governments deserve what they get in a war.

Am I correct?

And by the way. you need to study the rise of the 3rd Reich a little more closely. Hitler was not exactly voted into power by the people.

But by your logic am I to be held accountable for the Obama administration's actions because I didn't rebel against them?

I think that logic is a little simplistic from a political science viewpoint.

Oppressive governments are no different than the people they oppress? Nope, I'm not buying that.

Equating the average Joe, or Hans if you will, in Germany to the NAZI thugs just doesn't make sense.

It's like comparing Joe the plumber to Joe Biden (okay a lot worse but the concept ids the same). :rolleyes:

And there were numerous attempts on Hitler's life during his time as Fuhrer.

Most of the people in the American Revolution were not active rebels. The war would have been much shorter otherwise.

 

Me? I give civilians a free pass because international law says so. You can't target them. You can target military installations, which was done at both Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and civilians will get killed. But you don't intentionally kill them. If a city is declared an open city and not defended, you cannot attack it. The civilians get a free pass.

That's the way it's supposed to work and that's why they have war crimes trials.

When we occupied Japan, Germany and Italy, the civilians got a free pass. Otherwise we would have slapped them all into prison camps.

 

I would have supported the atomic strike on Japan if asked at the time. It was the best option to end the war.

Still, it was a very bad thing.

Suggested reading: Last Train from Hiroshima No BS, No politics. Just human stories.

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I don't give free passes to civilians.

I consider them responsible for the existence of their form of government.

Yes, I know that they may not have anything that they could have done to prevent something that happened but the government existed and without any form of rebellious activities they ACCEPT the presense of that governmental form and therefore are responsible for it.

Almost all people have conscience. This conscience is what should tell them that their government is wrong do something about it.

This is part of the reason that the defense used by many nazis at the nuremberg war crime trials could not get away with the I was just following orders claim.

 

Whether you like my view on this issue or not, the peoples of all countries ARE ultimately held accountable for the actions of their governments. This happens through many different means including but limited to loss on the battlefield, targets of bombing(strategic, tactical and terrorism at least), sanctions, occupation, etc. Some of it may even be from "legal" sources.

But not much of what happens is truely legal anyway.

 

Certainly you don't give the german people a free pass also. I don't as they initially voted hitler into power. Then followed him.

This is an extremely clear example.

 

The japanese are less clear, although I personnaly have never heard of any rebellion against japanese government during ww2 nor the time leading up to it.

 

Hogwash <_< ...So it was all those 'civilians' fault(all 3K of them)that they showed up for work at the WTC on 9-11?

BTW, I'm part(50%)German Jew(Mom's, Mom),and they "all" didn't vote Hitler in of their free will.....Do some research.

OH-BTW, study early Japan and the 'War-Lords'. See how they controlled the civilians.

Facts are stubburn things ;)

Carry on,

LG

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Sometimes there are no 'good' options, just ones that are better than the alternative. I believe nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki is an example of that type of situation. You do it, but with sadness, not joy.

 

Wow, I agree with you !

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Another person twisting my words and theories.

 

While I did use the word civilian, I should have used the word citizen.

I wish now that I had.

Many are confused by various treaties attempting to differentiate between soldiers and non-soldiers.

I view the responsible parties as citizens. and am changing my post accordingly.

 

you two are entitled to have your opinions and to distribute as much hogwash as you wish.

 

 

Ain't no twisting of any words. Except for the 'twisting' your doing.....You haven't done any research and does it show.

Let's see, you make a statement that was/is clear that you don't have a clue, then you say 'we' are wrong......THEN you change what you said.......yeah, that works <_<

Typical,

LG

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Another person twisting my words and theories.

 

While I did use the word civilian, I should have used the word citizen.

I wish now that I had.

Many are confused by various treaties attempting to differentiate between soldiers and non-soldiers.

I view the responsible parties as citizens. and am changing my post accordingly.

 

you two are entitled to have your opinions and to distribute as much hogwash as you wish.

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So I'm distributing hogwash?

Well I guess I''ll just bow to your superior grasp of these matters and see if I can distribute my hogwash elsewhere.

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Agreed.

 

But you missed the main point of the post.

That was are they civilians or soldiers?

 

By the way on my post #82 IIRC. There is only technically factually incorrect statement.

There are some blank lines. But I think even you would agree that they are not facts.

The rest are opinions and my statement of my theory and beliefs.

Beliefs are not facts. And cannot be disputed as facts.

As for how hitler came to power i already explained that.

I view it as a part of the democratic process of forming a coalition type government.

While I accept that some might view it as technically incorrect.

It still represents the lawful formation of a government.

 

I didn't miss a bloody thing. Your 'twist'n' and 'ducking' again.

You just don't know the true history of Germany(or the world)at the time Hitler came to power and it shows. For cry'n out loud, do some research will ya.

Call'em whatever makes you feel good. IF, a person takes up ARMS againt the USA. They are the ENEMY. PERIOD!

Civilians will die in war.....It's called a WAR for a reason.....

Your "babble"(aka "double-speak")would drive a Saint looney..

I'm done with ya....Enjoy your 'koolaid'......

LG

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So I'm distributing hogwash?

Well I guess I''ll just bow to your superior grasp of these matters and see if I can distribute my hogwash elsewhere.

 

 

hogwash comment was directed at lg

as his comment to me used that word.

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Certainly the use of atomic weapons was terrible but at least, for the most part, it was quick and deadly. I'm thinking the horror, pain, and suffering endured by casulties of the great fire bomb raids were extraordinary in comparison. Strange that you hardly ever hear in modern times just how gruesome those raids, e.g.Dresden, actually were.

 

My B29 pilot uncle remarked once that dodging sheet iron blasted upward by the intense heat from Tokyo fires was one of his most hazardous duties

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