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A slap in the face to Americans


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The world wide depression affected Japan's economy greatly. It was not merely America's policies. As the ultra nationalists in the Army gradually quashed the democratic reform movement in Japan, they became extremely effective in influencing the Emperor and guiding the country on the path to war. In my opinion, I believe the war was inevitable and had it occurred later than '41 we might have been in for a much worse time as Japan expanded its empire in the pacific.

 

 

Exactly. How many people commenting here have actually been to the memorial? I was stationed in Hawaii, and our house looked down on Pearl Harbor. A good portion of the visitors are Japanese. I think it is great to offer a perspective from their point of view. As UB says, it does not offer justification of the attack.

 

When watching one of the films of the attack at the memorial, we were shocked to see an old Japanese woman get up and leave, saying it was all propaganda. I don't think the Japanese people at the time knew what was really going on.

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The world wide depression affected Japan's economy greatly. It was not merely America's policies. As the ultra nationalists in the Army gradually quashed the democratic reform movement in Japan, they became extremely effective in influencing the Emperor and guiding the country on the path to war. In my opinion, I believe the war was inevitable and had it occurred later than '41 we might have been in for a much worse time as Japan expanded its empire in the pacific.

 

Plus, Japan had a nuclear program of its own going. There is some thin, and highly disputed, evidence that there was even one test of a nuclear bomb in August of 1945. See;

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_nuclear_weapon_program

 

http://www.japanprobe.com/2007/06/24/japans-atomic-bomb/

 

http://www.fortfreedom.org/w08.htm

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What I have issues with this article is what is not explained on the flip side. Japan does not comprehensively teach WWII history. Japan teaches WWII in a way that shares the blame between Japan and its opponents, all parties are at fault. Japan places the emphasis on the negative effects on their own country (atomic bomb) rather than the wrongs done to other countries (Pearl Harbor). They teach war as a mistake that should not be repeated, but fails to take responsibility for their actions.

 

Pearl Harbor should memorialize the death of American soldiers and people from a dastardly attack by the Japanese empire. Japanese reasoning should be left in history books and not in WWII memorials. Provocations and defense should be argued in a classroom and not in US memorial. Placing the enemy's philosophical perspective in our Memorial parks lends "credence" why the attack was justified.

 

 

It is not the purpose of the museum to explain why the totalitarian government of Japan (at the time) and curretly does not teach the total subject.

During the 20 years after WWII ended several books written by Japs attempted to rewrite history. Note "Midway the battle that doomed japan" by Fuchida is packed full of misconceptions that have been proven wrong by facts. And for many years was taken as fact, because Fuchida was there. Yet what he claims to be 5 minutes until launch of a strike against the US carriers was not possible. The jap planes were at least another half hour to an hour away from launch when the USN divebombers attacked. Proven conclusively in "The Shattered Sword" by Anthony Tully and Jonathan Parshall.

 

As I posted earlier the museum is about the attack and should show reasons, methods, strategies, preparations, results, etc. for the attack.

The Arizona Memorial is unchanged and remains the shrine you must have.

 

On the cause of the attack you might want to read a book I got that portends to describe a philosophy present in the FDR white house that was intended to start a war with japan;

"Day of Deceit; The truth about FDR and Pearl Harbor" by Robert B Stinnett.

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Exactly. How many people commenting here have actually been to the memorial? I was stationed in Hawaii, and our house looked down on Pearl Harbor. A good portion of the visitors are Japanese. I think it is great to offer a perspective from their point of view. As UB says, it does not offer justification of the attack.

 

When watching one of the films of the attack at the memorial, we were shocked to see an old Japanese woman get up and leave, saying it was all propaganda. I don't think the Japanese people at the time knew what was really going on.

 

 

Exactly, The japs were fed by their government war year propaganda, including not telling the public about the war, who started it, what the results were.

When Admiral Isoruku Yamamoto was killed his death was concealed from the public for many months. The results of the Battle of Midway were concealed for months also.

The survivors were send to isolation hospitals to recover and be isolated from the general public.

 

While on the subject of governments not telling the public the whole truth, think about the balloons sent from japan to attack USA. The idea was the balloons would follow the jetstream over the USA and drop incendiary devices and set the northwest woods on fire. Well not really possible as they are wetter than permits wild fires at least at that time.

Many balloons made landfall as far south as old mexico and there were some USA citizens killed in a single incident. The public was not told about the whole thing.

 

When I was in japan (late 60s early 70s) our driver and translator was shoveling that same propaganda although he clearly knew about Pearl Harbor, although the japs don't refere to it as pearl harbor, they referred to the attack as the Hawaiian Island operation. This is a more proper title as Pearl Harbor was but one of many targets attacked on Dec 8 1941 (note Tokyo time).

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The world wide depression affected Japan's economy greatly. It was not merely America's policies. As the ultra nationalists in the Army gradually quashed the democratic reform movement in Japan, they became extremely effective in influencing the Emperor and guiding the country on the path to war. In my opinion, I believe the war was inevitable and had it occurred later than '41 we might have been in for a much worse time as Japan expanded its empire in the pacific.

 

Actually the causes of Japan's policies started after WWI. I ran across this short article which presents a good overview of the events in the 20's and 30's. Japan is a industrial nation with few natural resources. When FDR imposed the oil embargo it directly cut off Japan's economic lifeline.

 

Like you I think war with Japan was inevitable but our leaders though it would occur later and that Japan would stike through the Phillipines.

 

http://www.theamericancause.org/patwhydidjapan.htm

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Exactly. How many people commenting here have actually been to the memorial? I was stationed in Hawaii, and our house looked down on Pearl Harbor. A good portion of the visitors are Japanese. I think it is great to offer a perspective from their point of view. As UB says, it does not offer justification of the attack.

 

When watching one of the films of the attack at the memorial, we were shocked to see an old Japanese woman get up and leave, saying it was all propaganda. I don't think the Japanese people at the time knew what was really going on.

 

 

I have - ...and at the time there were more Japanese tourists than 'round-eyes' on both visits...

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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Japan - no. We rebuilt their nation after the war.

 

Iran - maybe. http://en.wikipedia....p_d%27%C3%A9tat

 

We do not owe an apology to anyone - but please pen your apology to Iran and whoever else you feel a desire to.

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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Let me know how you feel after China or some other nation overthrows our government, installs their own rulers who surpress the rights of the citizens, arrests, tortures and executes anyone who disagrees with them for 29 years.

 

This is not to say I agree with Irans current policy towards Israel and nukes in anyway. However how much different would the situation be in the middle east today if Great Britain and our government had not overthrown the lawfully elected government of Iran?

 

I think we will all be sorry if nukes are used by Iran or Israel.

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Let me know how you feel after China or some other nation overthrows our government, installs their own rulers who surpress the rights of the citizens, arrests, tortures and executes anyone who disagrees with them for 29 years.

 

This is not to say I agree with Irans current policy towards Israel and nukes in anyway. However how much different would the situation be in the middle east today if Great Britain and our government had not overthrown the lawfully elected government of Iran?

 

I think we will all be sorry if nukes are used by Iran or Israel.

 

Oh - so we are like China now....oh brother :rolleyes:

 

I am glad you apologize like the president for the 'bad' doings that our nation has inflicted upon the world community. :wacko:

 

 

Maybe you can make a

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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I am sorry you missed my point which is how mistakes in the past shape world events today.

 

Didn't misread anything - no apology necessary to me (save it for Japan and Iran)

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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:FlagAm: There is nothing wrong with waving the flag as long as it doesn't blind us to the causes of events in the past. :FlagAm:

 

When our government overthrows the lawfully elected government of another country that is counter to the values of our great democracy and sense of fairness I was taught in school and have grown up with.

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:FlagAm: There is nothing wrong with waving the flag as long as it doesn't blind us to the causes of events in the past. :FlagAm:

 

When our government overthrows the lawfully elected government of another country that is counter to the values of our great democracy and sense of fairness I was taught in school and have grown up with.

 

...if that's how you see it. In my view, if a country with a 'lawfully elected government' wishes to destroy us or our allies than they are the enemy. If the diplomatic 'dance' works (and I pray it does)....GREAT!....if not, well.......

 

The USA always tried to be diplomatic in it's approach first. We are not 'conquerers' of nations....for the most part we are 'liberators'. So, I remain and always will remain a half-full attitude when it comes to my country's POV versus that of nations against us.

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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Those that do not learn from the mistakes made in history are doomed to repeat them again.

 

The economic policies of the United States in the 1930's towards Japan directly created a situation where Japan felt they had no choice but to go war.

 

Today we are using the same economic policy towards Iran. Will Iran feel the need to strike out instead of changing its policies about development of nukes?

 

While I would agree that their actions were not justified (from our point of view) we must learn from the mistakes of past to save American lives in the future.

 

 

So FDR's economic policy towards Japan was a mistake? You're smarter and better informed than FDR and his advisors were?

 

Our current policy towards Iran is also a mistake? You're also smarter and more informed than our current and prior administration with respect to correct economic policies towards Iran?

 

If we modify our policies along your guidelines Iran will develop nukes, but merely for decorative purposes, not to eliminate our ally Israel as their President has repeatedly threatened to do?

 

Interesting.

 

Let me know how you feel after China or some other nation overthrows our government, installs their own rulers who surpress the rights of the citizens, arrests, tortures and executes anyone who disagrees with them for 29 years.

 

This is not to say I agree with Irans current policy towards Israel and nukes in anyway. However how much different would the situation be in the middle east today if Great Britain and our government had not overthrown the lawfully elected government of Iran?

 

I think we will all be sorry if nukes are used by Iran or Israel.

 

I didn't realize we had overthrown the 'lawfully elected' government of Iran recently, when did that happen? I also didn't realize that the current government of Iran had been lawfully elected. I thought the Shah of Iran was overthrown by the Iranian Revolution who subsequently took our Embassy personnel prisoner and have rigged every election since then. The Shah took power as constitutional monarch after his father was forced out by British, Indian and Soviet forces. The US was involved in the Shah overthrowing the Prime Minister, but you're stretching things here. First, did the Shah have the right to remove the Prime Minister? At the time he issued the order the Prime Minister did not dispute the validity of that right, he claimed the order was a forgery, which it wasn't. You also neglect to mention the fact that the cold war was going strong and there was credible evidence that the Prime Minister was a puppet of the soviets.

 

Quick to condemn our government acting in our self interest, quick to excuse other governments attacking us and our allys.

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The Prime Minister of Iran at the time was elected by Parliment which was subsequently dissolved by referendum. We can quibble over semantics, but it Seldom's posts speak for themselves. From his saddle our government made lots of mistakes, treated the poor Japanese and Iranians unfairly and we deserve whatever they do in return.

 

I disagree.

 

It's offensive to me when people use the liberties secured for us by the actions of our forbearers to criticize those same actions and at the same time defend the actions of foreign countries who attack and kill our countrymen in contravention of all accepted international norms. Undoubtedly the right to lodge such criticisms exists in our country. The right to be disgusted by them also exists.

 

Some of SS's statements give the lie to the axiom that hindsight is always 20/20.

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The Prime Minister of Iran at the time was elected by Parliment which was subsequently dissolved by referendum. We can quibble over semantics, but it Seldom's posts speak for themselves. From his saddle our government made lots of mistakes, treated the poor Japanese and Iranians unfairly and we deserve whatever they do in return.

 

I disagree.

 

It's offensive to me when people use the liberties secured for us by the actions of our forbearers to criticize those same actions and at the same time defend the actions of foreign countries who attack and kill our countrymen in contravention of all accepted international norms. Undoubtedly the right to lodge such criticisms exists in our country. The right to be disgusted by them also exists.

 

Some of SS's statements give the lie to the axiom that hindsight is always 20/20.

 

100%

 

GG

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The world wide depression affected Japan's economy greatly. It was not merely America's policies. As the ultra nationalists in the Army gradually quashed the democratic reform movement in Japan, they became extremely effective in influencing the Emperor and guiding the country on the path to war. In my opinion, I believe the war was inevitable and had it occurred later than '41 we might have been in for a much worse time as Japan expanded its empire in the pacific.

 

Lots of issues going on inside of Japan at that time also, as the army and navy were all but at war with each other.

Been to Hawaii many times in my life. Always stopped at 'Pearl' to pay repects.

LG

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Isn't rewriting and criticizing history so much fun.

We owe no country an apology.

Every country has done good things and bad things. The US is no exception.

No countries actions can be taken in a vacuum. The whole system must be viewed and evaluated as a whole.

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Very true Hacker. But unlike some of the intelligentsia, I believe in 'absolute' rights and wrongs. Some actions are 'right' and some are 'wrong'. Perspective or POV have nothing to do with it. The attack on Pearl Harbor was wrong and the subsequent suffering and deaths of our countrymen was wrong, period, end of story. The fact that the perps were following orders means nothing. They had an obligation to act morally, they failed that obligation. Our founding fathers risked their lives, fortunes, and sacred honor in a just cause knowing that failure might mean the noose. Every member of the Japanese military faced a similar choice at Pearl.

 

They chose poorly and paid for it, I have no sympathy, respect or interest in them or their justifications.

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The Prime Minister of Iran at the time was elected by Parliment which was subsequently dissolved by referendum. We can quibble over semantics, but it Seldom's posts speak for themselves. From his saddle our government made lots of mistakes, treated the poor Japanese and Iranians unfairly and we deserve whatever they do in return.

 

I never said that about the Japanese. See post # 42.

 

I never said that about the Iranians. See post # 42 and 44. Since you did not read the link I posted I will print a portion of it:

 

“The 1953 Iranian coup d'état (known in Iran as the 28 Mordad coup was the overthrow of the democratically elected government of Iran Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh on 19 August 1953, orchestrated by the intelligence agencies of the United Kingdom (under the name 'Operation Boot') and the United States (under the name TPAJAX Project). The coup saw the transition of Mohammad-Rezā Shāh Pahlavi from a constitutional monarch to an authoritarian one who relied heavily on United States support to hold on to power until his own overthrow in February 1979.”

 

Definitions:

dem•o•crat•ic (dm-krtk)

adj.

1. Of, characterized by, or advocating democracy: democratic government; a democratic union.

2. Of or for the people in general; popular: a democratic movement; democratic art forms.

3. Believing in or practicing social equality: "a proper democratic scorn for bloated dukes and lords" (George du Maurier).

 

con•sti•tu•tion•al (knst-tsh-nl, -ty-)

adj.

1. Of or relating to a constitution: a constitutional amendment.

2. Consistent with, sanctioned by, or permissible according to a constitution: a law that was declared constitutional by the court; the constitutional right of free speech.

3. Established by or operating under a constitution: a constitutional government.

4. Of or proceeding from the basic structure or nature of a person or thing; inherent: a constitutional inability to tell the truth.

5. Of or relating to one's physical makeup.

 

au•thor•i•tar•i•an (-thôr-târ-n, -thr-, ô-thôr-, ô-thr-)

adj.

1. Characterized by or favoring absolute obedience to authority, as against individual freedom: an authoritarian regime.

2. Of, relating to, or expecting unquestioning obedience. See Synonyms at dictatorial

 

I disagree.

 

It's offensive to me when people use the liberties secured for us by the actions of our forbearers to criticize those same actions and at the same time defend the actions of foreign countries who attack and kill our countrymen in contravention of all accepted international norms.

 

I agree. See post # 44.

 

Undoubtedly the right to lodge such criticisms exists in our country. The right to be disgusted by them also exists.

 

Some of SS's statements give the lie to the axiom that hindsight is always 20/20.

 

My point exactly! To avoid making the same mistakes again we should study and learn from our mistakes in the past.

 

I do not know if the current situation with Iran would be any different if we had not overthrown Iran Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh in 1953. What I do know is when you paint someone into a corner they will either fight or surrender.

 

FDR’s policies towards Japan before Pearl Harbor was strongly opposed by many Americans. In fact polls showed the majority of Americans did not want to get involved in a war either with Japan or Germany.

 

Many people in America believe a war between Iran and Israel will break out before the November elections. Unfortunately we will not know until after the dust settles whether Obama’s strategy of economic sanctions was the right policy and how it contributed to war.

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Isn't rewriting and criticizing history so much fun.

We owe no country an apology.

Every country has done good things and bad things. The US is no exception.

No countries actions can be taken in a vacuum. The whole system must be viewed and evaluated as a whole.

 

Fair enough...go USA :P

 

GG

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Thanks GG!

 

SS you missed my point the axiom states that when we have the luxury of looking backwards we see things more clearly than people did at that time. My point was that your statements disprove that axiom, in other words the people at that time saw things more clearly than you do now, even though you have the luxury of hindsight.

 

Let me make it even clearer, FDR was right, you're wrong, Eisenhower was right, you're wrong. You don't know what would have happened had they acted differently and it's pretty presumptuous to think your judgement is superior to theirs.

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Thanks GG!

 

SS you missed my point the axiom states that when we have the luxury of looking backwards we see things more clearly than people did at that time. My point was that your statements disprove that axiom, in other words the people at that time saw things more clearly than you do now, even though you have the luxury of hindsight.

 

Let me make it even clearer, FDR was right, you're wrong, Eisenhower was right, you're wrong. You don't know what would have happened had they acted differently and it's pretty presumptuous to think your judgement is superior to theirs.

 

We will have to agree to disagree.

 

FDR recieved advice from both sides for and against what actions to take towards Japan. The oil embargo hastened war with Japan for which we were ill-prepared for. Even if he had not imposed a oil embargo he still would have had to dealt with the issue of Japanese expansion in China and S.E. Asia.

 

I think it was wrong for the U.S. and G.B. to overthrow the government of Iran in 1953 and install a dicator. I think it would still be wrong to do it again today.

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It's the thing to do in this new PC world frame of mind. Though I never oppose ALL FACTS exposed and discussed I do have an issue with this statement:

 

Martinez said some survivors have understandably wanted to keep the exhibits as more of a shrine or memorial, as opposed to an interpretation of history. But he said it's important for people to grasp a more complex story.

 

Really? an 'interpretation'?? and judging by the many 'interpretations' here on the Wire we can imagine how many 'interpretations' there will be on this :lol: - again, as long as it is just the FACTS...fine.

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

 

 

 

 

Well, let me see here ifin I got my facts straight.............

 

 

Fact # 1 Japan started a devastating war !

 

Fact # 2 The US had to fight a devastating war !

 

Fact # 3 Japan got it's ass kicked !

 

 

 

Is dim da facts or aint day ?

 

Ifin des da facts well, dats all dat needs to be said.

 

 

 

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Lots of issues going on inside of Japan at that time also, as the army and navy were all but at war with each other.

Been to Hawaii many times in my life. Always stopped at 'Pearl' to pay repects.

LG

 

 

Made it a "habit" for lack of a better word, the five years I was posted there and every trip passing through !

 

 

 

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I agree that the Japanese inclusion is out of place. I don't blame them for being happy at the site. It is the location of their most successful military operation ever and could have virtually ended the war in the Pacific if our carriers had been in port.

 

What really fried me was the doofus posting that the strike on Hiroshima was a mistake. Maybe his father wasn't on the troop ships in the Phillipines waiting to go ashore in the invasion force. Mine was and I don't consider the strike to be a mistake.

 

 

Maybe we should put up a display in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, as to why we dropped the atom bombs.

 

They are lucky we only had two bombs. :FlagAm: :FlagAm: :FlagAm:

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Well, let me see here ifin I got my facts straight.............

 

 

Fact # 1 Japan started a devastating war !

 

Fact # 2 The US had to fight a devastating war !

 

Fact # 3 Japan got it's ass kicked !

 

 

 

Is dim da facts or aint day ?

 

Ifin des da facts well, dats all dat needs to be said.

 

Out of curiosity do you agree with the use of nuclear weapons against the japs.

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Lots of issues going on inside of Japan at that time also, as the army and navy were all but at war with each other.

Been to Hawaii many times in my life. Always stopped at 'Pearl' to pay repects.

LG

Absolutely true. It was almost a jap miracle that the army didn't attack the navy.

I have been to Hawaii twice. Both times visited the Arizona Memorial.

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Maybe we should put up a display in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, as to why we dropped the atom bombs.

 

They are lucky we only had two bombs. :FlagAm: :FlagAm: :FlagAm:

 

The japs probably wouldn't permit it.

It would be the truth.

Operation Downfall would have been very expensive in American personnel.

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