Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

A slap in the face to Americans


Recommended Posts

  • Replies 112
  • Created
  • Last Reply

new pearl harbor display

 

So, in 60 years, at Ground Zero will we have a visitor center explaining the Terrorist's point of view too???

 

:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

 

It's not enough to know that a war started. It's also important to know why. It doesn't mean that Japan's motives were justified.

Link to post
Share on other sites

new pearl harbor display

 

So, in 60 years, at Ground Zero will we have a visitor center explaining the Terrorist's point of view too???

 

:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

 

CGB,

 

Pearl Harbor is visited by people from all over the world. It is important for those people and all Americans to understand that wars are not just started overnight. Look at our own youth, how many actually know what led up to WWII? Most have no idea why or where their grandfathers fought........and died. I don't for one second believe that they are glorifing Japan's reasoning for the attack on Pearl. I think it's more of a warning........no matter what your reasons are, if you attack the USA........you will get your ass kicked, no matter how long it takes. :FlagAm:

Link to post
Share on other sites

It's the thing to do in this new PC world frame of mind. Though I never oppose ALL FACTS exposed and discussed I do have an issue with this statement:

 

Martinez said some survivors have understandably wanted to keep the exhibits as more of a shrine or memorial, as opposed to an interpretation of history. But he said it's important for people to grasp a more complex story.

 

Really? an 'interpretation'?? and judging by the many 'interpretations' here on the Wire we can imagine how many 'interpretations' there will be on this :lol: - again, as long as it is just the FACTS...fine.

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

CGB,

 

Pearl Harbor is visited by people from all over the world. It is important for those people and all Americans to understand that wars are not just started overnight. Look at our own youth, how many actually know what led up to WWII? Most have no idea why or where their grandfathers fought........and died. I don't for one second believe that they are glorifing Japan's reasoning for the attack on Pearl. I think it's more of a warning........no matter what your reasons are, if you attack the USA........you will get your ass kicked, no matter how long it takes. :FlagAm:

 

Well said, gentlemen. The event, isolated, is almost meaningless other than as another tragedy in human history. Context is what gives meaning.

 

The museum shows clips from Japanese theater newsreels, including festive scenes of Ruth playing baseball during a tour. The exhibits also show Japan and the U.S. creeping closer to war, with newspaper headlines about Japan's invasion of China and U.S. sanctions against Japan.

 

The enlarged museum allows for more of the U.S. story to be told, as well. There are photos of bodies crowding the Honolulu morgue, coffins being buried at Kaneohe Beach and a burned corpse at Hickam Field. A glass display case shelters a pharmacist mate's bloodied white uniform. Visitors get to hear what civilians went through, including children who carried gas masks to school as Hawaii hunkered down for feared follow-on attacks.

 

I would hope some of the footage of Nanking would be included in the exhibit to show why the US put the sanctions against Japan.

 

As Mr. Bob, The Sage of the Saloon, so wisely said:

It doesn't mean that Japan's motives were justified.
Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree, it is important to understand what leads up to war. The education system does not provide enough information to kids anymore about wars. I bet if you ask most kids in high school why we fought the civil war they would say slavery (Not completely incorrect but certainly not a full grasp of the situation).

 

HOWEVER, I do not feel that the correct place to explain the reasons behind the attack is at the site where way too many Americans died in the attack. Just as I doubt that in Nagasaki there is a visitors center explaining whey we chose to drop that bomb, from the American point of view.

 

I want to put this out there just to make sure everyone knows... If someone ends up killing me, please don't put his explanation of why I needed killing on my gravestone...

Link to post
Share on other sites

Didn't read anything in the article that is a slap in my face.

 

Factual information at the site of the memorial is the best place to put such information (Japan's reasons for their cowardly sneak attack). Perhaps the only place a large number of people will see it. It is no slap in my face to know that some of the Japanese pilots were misinformed as the declaration of war and felt it was counter to their ethics of combat and war. It is no slap in my face to know of Japan's war activities and home life in the 1930's.

 

...and I don't have a clue as to how including such information has one wit to do with PC-anything.

 

Knowing more about a subject is a good thing and therefore a far cry from the usual intent of labeling something "PC".

 

Just sayin'....

Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree that the Japanese inclusion is out of place. I don't blame them for being happy at the site. It is the location of their most successful military operation ever and could have virtually ended the war in the Pacific if our carriers had been in port.

 

What really fried me was the doofus posting that the strike on Hiroshima was a mistake. Maybe his father wasn't on the troop ships in the Phillipines waiting to go ashore in the invasion force. Mine was and I don't consider the strike to be a mistake.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Reminds me of an old story.

 

A busload of Japanese tourists pulled up to the gate at Pearl Harbor. There was a young Marine Lance Corporal on guard.

The tour guide, who was new and Japanese asked "Can you tell us where the USS Arizona is?"

"Sure", he replied. "Right where you bastards left it."

 

I love being politically INCORRECT!

 

Shakey

Link to post
Share on other sites

As they say history is written by the victor! Our education system teaches history that places the US in a positive light or at least leaves out certain aspects of the true history.

 

We were taught that the Native Americans were a barbaric and murderous bunch that justfied our actions against them. Not really.

 

We were taught that the Civil War was mainly about slavery. Not really.

 

I bet if you poled the average college student today they would say Ameica was the agressor and caused the Vietnam conflict, war, and we commited war crimes!!!!!!!!

 

Again what Japan did was an act of war based on how they determined where their options left them. Once you get to that point and you decide to take action there you are going to inflict as much damage to dominate or cripple your enemy, America, as you can. As was said above. Had the carriers been in port we may have had to sue for peace in the Pacific. Pearl Harbor was the result of over 60 years of American meddling and misguided promises throughout the far east. Not rationalizing what Japan did, just after to read about the true history, we did put them in a bad spot. And prior to their attack on us we condoned the actions Japan took against Korea and China when they invaded those countries in the early 1900's then we reversed our position making them to be the bad guys. History is messed up.

 

I believe if you are going to tell someone about something then you should provide the actual events and true history. It shouldn't withold information nor should it give a PC spin to it. As Joe Friday often said, 'just the facts mam, just the facts'. Let people decide what they beleive and how they feel.

 

Ike

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

What really fried me was the doofus posting that the strike on Hiroshima was a mistake. Maybe his father wasn't on the troop ships in the Phillipines waiting to go ashore in the invasion force. Mine was and I don't consider the strike to be a mistake.

 

Same here. My dad was in the 3rd Marines, one of the first units in on Operation Olympic. Two of my brothers and I would likely not be here if that operation had been carried out.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Next step: The holocaust museum adds an exhibit that explains that Hitler rose to power because of Germany's hyperinflation which was caused by Germany being forced to make reparations for the damage it caused in World War One and if France and England hadn't insisted on reparations WW II and the holocaust would not have happened.

Link to post
Share on other sites

It's the thing to do in this new PC world frame of mind. Though I never oppose ALL FACTS exposed and discussed I do have an issue with this statement:

 

Martinez said some survivors have understandably wanted to keep the exhibits as more of a shrine or memorial, as opposed to an interpretation of history. But he said it's important for people to grasp a more complex story.

 

Really? an 'interpretation'?? and judging by the many 'interpretations' here on the Wire we can imagine how many 'interpretations' there will be on this :lol: - again, as long as it is just the FACTS...fine.

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

 

IT IS DAMNED WELL SUPPOSED TO BE A SHRINE!!!

Link to post
Share on other sites

So I suppose there will next be placed a marker on Lincoln's grave, explaining why Booth thought it was best for the South to murder the President? Maybe one on Kennedy's grave? Kings? I mean, hell, we MUST understand the thought processes that led up to the assassinations, right?

Link to post
Share on other sites

All I'm saying is that in order to understand the history you really need to know the how and why it happened. Maybe it might prevent it from happening again. What is history without the truth, just fiction that made the story go the way the author wanted.

 

Not really saying we need to put everything on every monument or the like. I'm just saying no matter what the action taken there is a cause and effect.

 

When I left High School I felt the South and all of its citizens at the time where slave owners and scum because of it. I thought the North did the right thing. The when you read the real history in more detail you learn they were fighting for the rights of the States, slavery was a part of the right for them to decide.

 

What is the holocost without understanding of how the leadership spread hatred and created the culture around genocide? If you say during WWII Germany killed over 4 million jews and left it at that, wouldn't you want to know the why and what needs to be done to prevent it again?

 

Ultimately if we tell histroy with all of the facts and circumsatnces won't we learn more about how we got to where we are now? Knowledge is power.

 

Ike

Link to post
Share on other sites

Reminds me of an old story.

 

A busload of Japanese tourists pulled up to the gate at Pearl Harbor. There was a young Marine Lance Corporal on guard.

The tour guide, who was new and Japanese asked "Can you tell us where the USS Arizona is?"

"Sure", he replied. "Right where you bastards left it."

 

I love being politically INCORRECT!

 

Shakey

 

This is on my list of top 10 best post I have ever read.

 

AWESOME!!!!

Link to post
Share on other sites

All I'm saying is that in order to understand the history you really need to know the how and why it happened. Maybe it might prevent it from happening again......

Ike

 

I have no problem with your position, however I think a more germane question might be not what is appropriate to understanding history, but what is appropriate to a memorial to fallen warriors.

 

It is a memorial, right? Not a history class. Who cares about foreigners who happen to visit? Brave Americans who had volunteered to serve their country suffered and died there at the hands of an enemy that had not even declared war. Nuff Said!

 

Should we mention JFK's serial infidelities on his tombstone, or the fact that he may have been having an affair with a mobster's gal? It would give visitors a better understanding of history....

 

Political Correctness is exactly the right term for that kind of stuff. Just like the ridiculousness of burying UBL at sea according to 'proper' Muslim practices.

 

Some are afraid to say our culture is superior to others. No, nowadays everything is 'nuanced' and people or cultures aren't good or bad, they're just different. And if people do bad things well, they aren't really to blame, they must have been victimized...

 

To think that the country those men died for would put that kind of garbage on their memorial is truly disturbing.

Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not enough to know that a war started. It's also important to know why. It doesn't mean that Japan's motives were justified.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

+1 :FlagAm:

Link to post
Share on other sites

A shrine to fallen warriors? No problem.

 

But...why did the Empire of Japan take the ENORMOUS risk of sending a huge part of their Fleet thousands of miles to make the attack? If you don't answer that question (and do it honestly) how do you put the shrine in context? Indeed, if you don't make an honest presentation then you hand the field to the revisionists who WILL add that context. Is that a better deal?

 

I visited the WWI Museum in KC this last weekend. There was an excellent introductory flick and some good photos demonstrating the world as it was in 1914 and how it got there. This context does not in the slightest diminish the sacrifices of the men in the trenches, it adds understanding.

 

Accurate and honest context improves understanding; it never diminishes the deeds of the fallen.

 

SQQ

Link to post
Share on other sites

A shrine to fallen warriors? No problem.

 

But...why did the Empire of Japan take the ENORMOUS risk of sending a huge part of their Fleet thousands of miles to make the attack? If you don't answer that question (and do it honestly) how do you put the shrine in context? Indeed, if you don't make an honest presentation then you hand the field to the revisionists who WILL add that context. Is that a better deal?

 

I visited the WWI Museum in KC this last weekend. There was an excellent introductory flick and some good photos demonstrating the world as it was in 1914 and how it got there. This context does not in the slightest diminish the sacrifices of the men in the trenches, it adds understanding.

 

Accurate and honest context improves understanding; it never diminishes the deeds of the fallen.

 

SQQ

 

Very well said, sir.

 

The USS Arizona Memorial is still there, unchanged. No rising sun flying over it. No monument to the IJN on it. The Visitors Center, where people get on the boat out to the Monument, and which had been sinking into the mud of the harbor, has been replaced. And expanded.

 

The new facility will also serve as a one-stop shuttle hub for other historic Pearl Harbor sites that either weren’t open or weren’t accessible to the public when the visitor center was first built. Among these: the National Park Service’s World War II Valor in the Pacific National Monument sites at Pearl Harbor—which include the USS Arizona, USS Oklahoma and USS Utah Memorials—and the U.S. Navy’s Pearl Harbor Historic Sites—which include the Battleship Missouri Memorial, the Pacific Aviation Museum and the USS Bowfin Submarine Museum and Park.

 

The USS Bowfin itself, once across a parking lot from the old USS Arizona Memorial Visitor Center, is now part of the new center’s campus, which has expanded from 11 to 17 freshly landscaped acres.

 

Or should PH be limited to just the USS Arizona?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I regret that I have not yet had the opportunity to go to Pearl Harbor, but it is on the list I am working thru of truly important places I must visit before departing this world. So, I do not know if there is a Pearl Harbor Museum, or perhaps a WWII Museum near Pearl Harbor. A Museum is the correct place to explain the history correctly, a Memorial is not. There are thousands of places a person can go to learn the full history of every historical event, famous or infamous. Learning history starts at home before your kids can even read but they can listen to your stories. They should learn more in classrooms and they can learn even more in libraries, museums, and even on the danged internet. However, you don't visit a Memorial or a Shrine to learn why so many died, you go to pay the respect that the dead have earned with their sacrifices.

 

I don't think anybody here would want to see a large explaination of the politics of the North Vietnamese so close to The Wall that you can see the reflection of Ho Chi Minh in the shiny black marble.

Link to post
Share on other sites

IT IS DAMNED WELL SUPPOSED TO BE A SHRINE!!!

 

 

You are correct!! - I have been to Pearl Harbor and remember folks being talked to about it on site, albeit, it was in a calm and solemn manner by the National Parks gentlman. Also, there were MANY Japanese there - they did not seem boastful or glad in any way. They were respectful.

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

Link to post
Share on other sites

All I'm saying is that in order to understand the history you really need to know the how and why it happened. Maybe it might prevent it from happening again. What is history without the truth, just fiction that made the story go the way the author wanted.

 

Not really saying we need to put everything on every monument or the like. I'm just saying no matter what the action taken there is a cause and effect.

 

When I left High School I felt the South and all of its citizens at the time where slave owners and scum because of it. I thought the North did the right thing. The when you read the real history in more detail you learn they were fighting for the rights of the States, slavery was a part of the right for them to decide.

 

What is the holocost without understanding of how the leadership spread hatred and created the culture around genocide? If you say during WWII Germany killed over 4 million jews and left it at that, wouldn't you want to know the why and what needs to be done to prevent it again?

 

Ultimately if we tell histroy with all of the facts and circumsatnces won't we learn more about how we got to where we are now? Knowledge is power.

 

Ike

 

I agree with everything you're saying, but I strongly disagree with the LOCATION of their display. It's WRONG to put it at the scene of their atrocity. How about we build a monument to the atom bomb in Peace Park in downtown Hiroshima? Do you think that would be appropriate? (FWIW, I do think it would be, but that's just me.)

Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with everything you're saying, but I strongly disagree with the LOCATION of their display. It's WRONG to put it at the scene of their atrocity. How about we build a monument to the atom bomb in Peace Park in downtown Hiroshima? Do you think that would be appropriate? (FWIW, I do think it would be, but that's just me.)

 

I concur Forty Rod...ultimately that's how I feel about it too. Thanks

 

GG ~:FlagAm:

Link to post
Share on other sites

I was there 2 weeks ago on my first visit to Hawaii. The Pearl Harbor Memorial, the Arizona and the Mighty Mo were all my first priorities to see. During the movie that tries to explain the why & where of the SNEAK ATTACK (they don't use that term in the film) on the United States, the whole tone of the Japanese ivnolvement in starting WWII in the Pacific is really low key. If we remember they started in Manchuria and Indochina before Pearl Harbor. We just didn't seem to believe they would go as far as they did. There was no justification in my mind for an unprovoked military attack of Pearl Harbor. Yes our relations with Japan were not that great, but to do what they did cannot be justified.

 

That memorial and it's displays should be historically accurate and tell it like it was, no soft peddaling because we might hurt Japan's feeling today....Sorry that's my take.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Frankly, I have never been accused of being particularly PC.

 

I don't give a rats rear what the Japanese reasons for attacking Pearl Harbor (the U.S.A.) were.

Their leaders made the decision to strike unannounced at a time they hoped would cripple the U.S. militarily and possibly destroy the resolve of the American people. They were wrong.

 

The day they put a memorial at Hiroshima and Nagasaki explaining how the Japanese had killed thousands of U.S. servicemen, murdered 10's of thousands of Chinese (predominately women and children), committed atrocities across the Pacific (Bataan comes to mind), how the military leadership had vowed to fight to the death should the U.S. have to land in Japan itself and this was expected to result in the deaths of thousands more U.S. servicemen but these reasons made dropping of the bomb a good thing as it was a logical way to end the hostilities, then we can put their (Japanese) reasons in the PH museum.

 

Rant mode off

 

Have a nice day all

 

Regards

 

:FlagAm::FlagAm::FlagAm:

 

Gateway Kid

Link to post
Share on other sites

Memorials are just that and should have the proper display and respect for those being memorialized.

 

I just think that we need to teach/educate our people to know everything they can about all the components of an event.

 

Although I kinda of want to have a sign at Little Big Horn that says an arrogant, egotistical, overly confident officer caused the untimely death of XXX soldiers!

 

Ike

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't believe you need to rub someones nose in sh-- just because you can. Nor do I believe when you win at anything it enhances the moment to torment those that have tried and come up second. By the same token I'm not a big fan of excuses for actions good or bad and I've heard some great excuses for poor behavior over the years, but the act must stand on its own. The Arizonia is a U.S. Navy vessel staffed by 1000 members of the U.S. Armed Forces and commemorates the losses suffered by U.S. Military Forces December 7th 1941, the deeper why isn't part of the picture.

I visted the Arizonia in '65 on my way overseas, I didn't really understand what I was looking at but I could feel it's power as I stood there. The troop ship I was on presented honors to the Arizonia both arriving and departing. Honors I understood to those still on duty 24 years later and for ever. On my way home from that and my secondary deployment to the festivities in south east asia I was a guest in the Pink Elephant ( Tripler) for four months until I was able to be moved to the Navy Hospital in Bremerton Washington. Near the end of my stay at Tripler I again visted the Arizonia. As I neared the memorial I knew the agony and the fear that lingers still near that ship. I knew those 1000 all had mothers and fathers that had lost a son and and with him those dreams we all have for our children. The pain suffered by the wifes and sweethearts that lost a partner, the void the sons and daughers that lost a father must endure. I think you must also equip yourself with the understanding that this isn't just about Pearl and the Arizonia this is about the "War in the Pacific" this helps give back something to those thousands of Americans and others that lost their life in some lonely place that no memorial could ever find nor grace their finial resting place. While the Arizonia is by definition a memorial, or even a Shrine to me its HOLY GROUND.

12

Link to post
Share on other sites

The museum is NOT a memorial.

That is what the USS Arizona Memorial is for.

The display mentioned in the article is NOT in the USS Arizona Memorial.

 

The museum presents facts about the lead up to the attack, the attack and aftermath.

It should show all the facts not just those that make Americans happy.

History is about what happened and why.

 

Remember that the japanese were not told the truth by their own leaders.

Even after the facts became somewhat obvious.

 

So the job of any competent museum is to present all the facts in a clear and concise manner.

No spin is required.

Nor is it necessary.

Nor is it ethical.

 

This is NOT "A slap in the face to Americans" rather presentation of facts.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Pearl Harbor has been a part of my life since I can remember. In fact, the USS Arizona and the story is my earliest memory. My father survived the bombing at Hickam Field. He served in the Pacific for the duration of WWII and for 30 years in the USAF (ret E8). The first school that I attended was on base at Hickam.

 

When I began to understand better once I asked the ol' man if he hated the Japanese. He thought about it and said that every man on both sides was just following orders like he was. One of his best friends later in life was an older Japanese man who loved ballroom dancing as much as he did. His passing is one of the only times I can remember seeing him cry.

 

Clearly if we're to begin to have a chance of avoiding global conflict then we must understand the causes as much as we can from the perspectives of both victor and vanquished.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 1 year later...
I was there 2 weeks ago on my first visit to Hawaii. The Pearl Harbor Memorial, the Arizona and the Mighty Mo were all my first priorities to see.

Elvis was a major contributor to make the Arizona Memorial.

Link to post
Share on other sites

What I have issues with this article is what is not explained on the flip side. Japan does not comprehensively teach WWII history. Japan teaches WWII in a way that shares the blame between Japan and its opponents, all parties are at fault. Japan places the emphasis on the negative effects on their own country (atomic bomb) rather than the wrongs done to other countries (Pearl Harbor). They teach war as a mistake that should not be repeated, but fails to take responsibility for their actions.

 

Pearl Harbor should memorialize the death of American soldiers and people from a dastardly attack by the Japanese empire. Japanese reasoning should be left in history books and not in WWII memorials. Provocations and defense should be argued in a classroom and not in US memorial. Placing the enemy's philosophical perspective in our Memorial parks lends "credence" why the attack was justified.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Those that do not learn from the mistakes made in history are doomed to repeat them again.

 

The economic policies of the United States in the 1930's towards Japan directly created a situation where Japan felt they had no choice but to go war.

 

Today we are using the same economic policy towards Iran. Will Iran feel the need to strike out instead of changing its policies about development of nukes?

 

While I would agree that their actions were not justified (from our point of view) we must learn from the mistakes of past to save American lives in the future.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Those that do not learn from the mistakes made in history are doomed to repeat them again.

 

The economic policies of the United States in the 1930's towards Japan directly created a situation where Japan felt they had no choice but to go war.

 

Today we are using the same economic policy towards Iran. Will Iran feel the need to strike out instead of changing its policies about development of nukes?

 

While I would agree that their actions were not justified (from our point of view) we must learn from the mistakes of past to save American lives in the future.

 

Sounds like America owes Japan and Iran an apology ...:rolleyes: ....uh...no!

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Those that do not learn from the mistakes made in history are doomed to repeat them again.

 

The economic policies of the United States in the 1930's towards Japan directly created a situation where Japan felt they had no choice but to go war.

 

Today we are using the same economic policy towards Iran. Will Iran feel the need to strike out instead of changing its policies about development of nukes?

 

While I would agree that their actions were not justified (from our point of view) we must learn from the mistakes of past to save American lives in the future.

The world wide depression affected Japan's economy greatly. It was not merely America's policies. As the ultra nationalists in the Army gradually quashed the democratic reform movement in Japan, they became extremely effective in influencing the Emperor and guiding the country on the path to war. In my opinion, I believe the war was inevitable and had it occurred later than '41 we might have been in for a much worse time as Japan expanded its empire in the pacific.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.