Reshoots/penalties?

[Shooting Bull]

So as not to hijack another thread, here's my question. An entire posse shoots a stage incorrectly due to faulty instructions. Because of that, the Match Director decides the entire posse should reshoot the stage. In the handbook it says on reshoots the shooter starts clean, with no misses, but carries forward any safety penalties from the first time through. Does that also apply in this case where the whole posse is reshooting due to faulty instructions?

[Grizzly Dave]

Is the moon full? What is the temperature? What color shirt is the match director wearing? Did the faulty stage reading cause any penalties?

 

I'd say forget the Ps and carry any safety stuff forward.

[Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001]

Sir

NOT trying to be hardxxx about it , BUT

ALL penelaties carry foward per the rules

 

CB

[Marauder SASS #13056]

SASS Handbook, Page 21:

On a reshoot/restart, the competitor starts over clean, carrying only accrued safety penalties forward.

 

So only safety penalties are carried over. Misses and Procedure penalties are cleared out.

 

I see no exception for an entire posse reshoot.

[Shooting Bull]

Sir

NOT trying to be hardxxx about it , BUT

ALL penelaties carry foward per the rules

 

CB

 

 

Could you please provide me with which manual and what page number says to carry misses and procedrual penalties forward?

[Shooting Bull]

I see no exception for an entire posse reshoot.

 

I agree, just figured the question would come up eventually.

[Bad Hombre #23212]

SASS Handbook, Page 21:

 

 

So only safety penalties are carried over. Misses and Procedure penalties are cleared out.

 

I see no exception for an entire posse reshoot.

+1 rule looks Dang clear to me!!

And iffin they throw out the whole stage, the safety penalties go too!!

Saw a feller go from last to first at a State match with a SDQ!!

Ain't that fair!!

 

BH

[Anvil Al #59168]

SASS Handbook, Page 21:

 

 

So only safety penalties are carried over. Misses and Procedure penalties are cleared out.

 

I see no exception for an entire posse reshoot.

 

 

That's the way I see it.

[Shooting Bull]

+1 rule looks Dang clear to me!!

And iffin they throw out the whole stage, the safety penalties go too!!

Saw a feller go from last to first at a State match with a SDQ!!

Ain't that fair!!

 

BH

 

Wow!!! If'n that was me, I'd have an aweful hard time accepting that award.

[Bad Hombre #23212]

Twerent really his fault, and at the end of the day, he was the best shooter!!

So I dont know just what ya could do!!

When they throw out a whole stage, everything gos like it never happened.

Effects most every shooter in every catagory!!

Even the guy who places 25 instead of 26.

Nobody likes it winners and loser...but what the #$%^% can ya do about it.

So "It is what it is"!!!

Life aint always fair even in a Gunfight!!!

 

BH

PS I recon what I'm saying is when ya start trying ta fix a screw-up, it just gets worst!!

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

Sir

NOT trying to be hardxxx about it , BUT

ALL penelaties carry foward per the rules

 

CB

 

My friend, from ROI, page 21:

 

RE-SHOOTS/RESTARTS

SASS matches above the club level are "no alibi" matches. Once the first round goes down range, the competitor is committed to the stage and must finish the stage to the best of his or her ability. Reshoots/restarts are not awarded for ammunition or firearm malfunctions. However, if there is a range failure (failure of props, timer, or the range officers) beyond the competitor's control, a restart may be granted. On a reshoot/restart, the competitor starts over clean, carrying only accrued safety penalties forward.

Edit: Can ya'll tell I've been off doing other things while replying to this? It appears I missed a bit.

[Fast Enuff]

Not to stir the pot too much but the devil's advocate position is that the "entire" posse is reshooting not just someone who happened to earn a safety penalty or DQ.

 

One could easily make the argument that a forced reshoot of the entire posse is unfair in that you are multiplying the odds of just those in that specific posse earning a major penalty since they are shooting one more stage in the match than everyone else did. The only semi-fair thing to do is act like that stage never happened for that posse and do it again.

 

(And that doesn't even get into the issue of that one posse getting to "do it again" and all the advantages of having actually shot it once already.)

 

I'd say that, unfortunately, the best decision would have been to throw out the stage entirely if it was determined that the stage times were unusable from that posse.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Fast Enuff,

Statistically, most folks will shoot the stage nearly as well as they did the first time. Only a few will actually improve. Yes, someone may "crash" but not usually.

 

When all the other folks shot the stage and did it correctly, it is not a good idea to penalize them -which often happens if you merely drop the stage. I remember a few big shoots where a stage was dropped. Many folks were REALLY upset. Some mentioned that they had shot their best stage, just to have it not count. A reshoot for a posse may impact about 10% of the shooters at a large match. Dropping a stage impacts ALL the shooters.

 

Seems the shooters get more upset by dropping stages rather than doing a reshoot or taking a procedure. So dropping a stage is probably the last option for a match director.

[Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001]

Hey Buck

Sorry I had a brain fart , Thats why I have a copy of the SHB , RO1 ,& RO2 in the gun cart .

When all else fails go to the books .

CB

[Black Tom]

Seems like SASS rules should apply, clean except for safetys and SDQor MDQ. Just because is the whole posse and not one shooter should not matter. If a RO gave bad instruction to one shooter such as telling them to move before relizing they have a revolver cocked they still get a DQ.

BT

[Madd Mike #8595]

safety Pees

should NOT be for given

 

be it a written, rule er not

 

but, watt do I know

[Aunt Jen]

It's difficult to figure out what way would be the most fair.

 

The whole-posse re-shoot increases the likelihood that an error might be made, and fatigue can increase, but (even though the re-shoot would have a different order in the stage, someone might even do better the second time.

 

I don't know how it could be done more fair, if there are other posses all in the mix for the match results. Can't throw out the stage, as it's got to be in there. Can't accept the scores if they didn't shoot it the same way. And I'm guessing the safeties carried forward are meant to encourage safe practices on an on-going basis?

 

I don't know if there were other posses competing, etc., but it seems like what was done may be the best solution.

 

Aunt Jen

[Shooting Bull]

but, watt do I know

 

I been tryin' to figger that out for three years.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

So in a reshoot, first time through, the shooter got a SDQ. Does he start clean with a reshoot? I musta missed that discussion.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

I just happened to be on a posse two years ago at Winter Range that shot a stage incorrectly

(actually we handled the prop incorrectly to start the stage - Pretty minor difference, but another posse perceived an advantage).

 

We were given the choice to reshoot, or take 10 second procedural penalties.

My raw time was slightly slower, but the reshoot eliminated my miss on that stage, so I improved.

But out of 20 or so shooters, I believe only three of us ended up better than our first run.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Seems like SASS rules should apply, clean except for safetys and SDQor MDQ. Just because is the whole posse and not one shooter should not matter. If a RO gave bad instruction to one shooter such as telling them to move before relizing they have a revolver cocked they still get a DQ.

BT

 

 

Tom - You are correct.

The shooters usually all have their own stage book and are encouraged to follow along to protect themselves from a Marshal reading the stage incorrectly.

But there are times during walk thrus and question and answer time that issues are covered, clarified and even changed from the shooters book. If this information is not conveyed or worse, conveyed incorrectly - you can't penalize the whole posse and a reshoot is sometimes the only fair recourse.

[Black Tom]

I agree with you that at times a reshoot for the whole posse is the only fair way if it was shot wrong. However I don't think safety calls should be easily dismissed. They usually have nothing to do with the way a stage was shot. But rather a action that has been defined as unsafe in our sport. So no I don't think a shooter who received a SDQ or MDQ should get a reshoot because of bad coaching, or instructions from the posse leader. The rest of the posse definitely.

BT

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Yup, the rule was quoted a time or two.

 

But to rephrase, P's and misses are cleared. Safeties are carried over. Safety penalties include minor safety, stage DQ and Match DQ. If the person has a minor safety penalty the first time, they are still allowed to reshoot, but once their total time has been calculated for the reshoot, any minor safety penalties from the original stage are added to the total time for the reshoot. And remember that you can "earn" more than one minor safety.

 

Since the SDQ and MDQ are also safety penalties, they still hold. The MDQ of course means you are dong shooting. The SDQ means you are done for that stage, so you cannot really reshoot it. Or even if you were to reshoot it, you would still keep the Stage DQ.

 

Does that help?