.45-70 Ammo for Remmington Rolling Block

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Hi all.

 

Recently, a friend of mine got a Pendersoli Rolling Block in .45-70 for Christmas.

 

When asked, I advised him that he should only run "trapdoor safe" loads in the gun, as it is my understanding that the Rolling Block action is not that much stronger than the Trapdoor Springfield. Was that proper advice, or was I being too cautious? I know the even if it can handle hotter loads that the trapdoor loads will still be perfectly servicable, but I don't want him to think that it can't do something that it can.

 

Anyone in the know who can confirm, or correct, my assumptions is welcome to do so.

[Tex Jones, SASS 2263]

Good advice. Although new rifles, such as Rolling Blocks and Trapdoors are made with high quality steel, the actions are still weak. Commercial loads for 45-70 are generally applicable to Trapdoor and Rolling Block actions. High pressure loads are not recommended. The paper work with the rifle normally has that warning. Same goes for reloading manuals. Some have loads for the Trapdoors and Rolling Blocks on the weak end of the scale and progress up through lever actions such as the '86 with the heaviest loads for Ruger No. 1's. There was a book sold, primarily at gun shows, which listed loads for a specific cartridge by all the powder manufacturers that broke down the various types and the loads they were capable of handling.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

From the combined (various powder & bullet manufacturers' recommendations) reloading manual for the .45-70:

 

.45-70 Safety Chart

 

Class A - 40,000-50,000 max CUP - Ruger #1, Ruger #3, Browning B78, Mauser Actions

 

Class B - 28,000 max CUP - Model 1886 Winchester, Marlin M1895

 

Class C - 18,000 max CUP - Trapdoor Springfield Model 1873, Sharps, Remington Rolling Blocks, H&R Shikari, Blackpowder rifles, Replicas, Any Older Weapons.

Included is a disclaimer stating that the authors have opted for the safest choice in cases where two or more manufacturers disagree or conflict as to what load pressure a weapon will handle.

[Yellowhouse Sam # 25171]

From the combined (various powder manufacturers' recommendations) reloading manual for the .45-70:

 

 

Included is a disclaimer stating that the authors have opted for the safest choice in cases where two or more manufacturers disagree or conflict as to what load pressure a weapon will handle.

 

Even if it was recommended, shooting a string of Class A or even Class B loads with heavy bullets is not what I call fun.

[Iron Pony]

Tell him to be even safer, shoot real gunpowder in it instead of that goofy smokeless. Never seen it tested, maybe we can call mythbusters, but I doubt even a case full of 4F, which would probably be about 60 grains when you leave room for the slug, could get you into trouble.

[Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363]

Good advice staying at the low end of the scale. Why court disaster?

 

I'd hazard a guess that most of long-range big bore rifles purchased by SASS members will only ever be used to ping a steel plate or punch a hole in a piece of paper, not take down a charging bull elephant or Cape buffalo. A 300 or 405 grain bullet loafing along at 1300 fps will do fine. Trying to send a 500 grain bullet at 2000 fps will just beat the daylights out of both shooter and rifle.

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

Using BP, a modern (or #5 steel original) RB can push a VERY HEAVY bullet with a stout charge of Swiss through a buffalo at any presentation, including end to end or sideways through 3 feet of skull. What more do ya NEED? Further, the MOST ACCURATE loads will use black.

 

That said one of the hotrodders back in the 1950s was working up very heavy loads for a blown out .30-06 case (might have been whelen messing with the .338) and after blowing up several '03 springfields, he bought and used old rollers and they NEVER blew up, (though he did manage to get cracks around the block pins using a 300 grain bullet at OH MY GOD velocities). They ain't exactly FRAIL, but will be much happier with nice BP loads even if ya wanna go to heavy bullets and spicey charges of Swiss.

[Trailrider #896]

Howdy, Pards! Hope you had a Merry Christmas and Santa brought you something neat!

 

First of all, I DO NOT DISAGREE WITH THE RECOMMENDATION TO USE BP EQUIVALENT LOADS, OR BP ITSELF!

 

But, for the benefit of those not familiar with the Remington Rolling Block and its ORIGINAL copies (Whitney, etc.), let me discuss the design and its strengths and weaknesses.

 

The design features a hammer, which must be manually pulled to full cock in order to rotate the breechblock open. The cartridge is then inserted and the breechblock rotated closed. On MOST RB's, closing the block leaves the rifle ready to fire by pulling the trigger. The breechblock at this point is UNlocked! On a FEW originals, notably those made for the New York State Militia (both rifles and carbines), the hammer falls into a half-cock notch which does lock the breech. The hammer on those must be pulled back to full cock in order to fire.

 

Strengthwise, the original BP rifles/carbines, were probably somewhat stronger than the Trapdoor Springfield. Regardless, they were more than adequate for most of the BP cartridges for which they were chambered.

 

In 1902, using somewhat higher strength steel, the Rolling Blocks were chambered in 7 x 57 Mauser, and you will encounter some in .30-40 Krag (aka .30 U.S., NOT .30-06!) These are identifiable by the 1902 patent date. If they don't have the 1902 patent marking, they are probably the M1895 version, which wasn't as strong.

 

CAUTION: Rolling Blocks chambered for 7 x 57 Mauser, when used with modern ammo or brass HAVE EXCESSIVE HEADSPACE! This is NOT necessarily because the rifle has been subject to excessive pressure, though it could have been! The reason for most of them showing "excessive headspace" if measured with SAAMI-standard headspace gages is that the original 7 x 57 specs called for a longer head-to- shoulder dimension. Presuming you have the rifle checked out otherwise, it is not unsafe to fire factory loads or even mild handloads. But, if you reload, after firing, BACK YOU SIZING DIE off until it barely touches the shoulder. Keep those cases for use in the individual rifle. Keep you loads mild, however.

 

Where original RB's encounter problems is when they are subject to higher pressure loads on larger diameter cartridges. The reason is that pressure times area equals force on the breechblock. The breechblock depends on the surfaces of the hammer, and in order to be able to open the action, a bit of clearance must be maintained between the hammer and the mating surfaces of the block. This results in some springiness. Plus, the face of the block rotates back AND DOWN. This can result in slightly bending the cartridge case head. If severe enough it may make sizing and chambering the fired round difficult.

 

The backthrust on the breechblock is transferred to the pivot pins, which in turn transfers the thrust to the receiver. I have seen articles recommending that original rifles have their pivot pins replaced with hardened or alloy steel pivot pins. Although it isn't a bad idea, unless the rilfe shows signs that the pins are being battered, I wouldn't bother.

 

Here is the worst part of the problem with the originals. I have seen photos of RB's that shattered across the pivot pin holes in the receiver! This was apparently primarily do to use of very hot loads in original RB's. I WOULD HAVE ANY ORIGINAL RB CHECKED FOR CRACKING AROUND THE PIVOT PIN HOLES!

 

As to the modern repros, the use of stronger steels will help with a higher safety margin, especially with the older BP cartridge chamberings. BUT...THERE IS NO SENSE TRYING TO MAKE A .500 3" Nitro Express out of a .50-140, nor a .458 WinMag out of a .45-70 or .45-90!

 

Bottom line: Stick with the light-to-medium loads!

 

Ride careful, Pards! Happy Holidays to all! Godspeed to those still in harm's way in the defense of Freedom everywhere! God Bless America!

 

Your Pard,

[Festus D. Deputy, SASS #49419]

Hi all.

 

Recently, a friend of mine got a Pendersoli Rolling Block in .45-70 for Christmas.

 

When asked, I advised him that he should only run "trapdoor safe" loads in the gun, as it is my understanding that the Rolling Block action is not that much stronger than the Trapdoor Springfield. Was that proper advice, or was I being too cautious? I know the even if it can handle hotter loads that the trapdoor loads will still be perfectly servicable, but I don't want him to think that it can't do something that it can.

 

Anyone in the know who can confirm, or correct, my assumptions is welcome to do so.

 

It is "Pedersoli."

 

I own a Pedersoli Rolling Block in 45-70.

 

From experience: If you shoot too much load from this gun, a 400+ grain bullet will not be stable as the riffling twist is a bit much. I believe this twist rate was intended for Black Powder. Your friend may experience bullet instability, and key-holing on paper target, and in general very poor accuracy at velocities above 1500 fps. At least I did. If you will slow the load down to about 1450 fps, the gun is deadly accurate.

YMMV,

 

best regards,

 

fdd

[Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655]

Using BP, a modern (or #5 steel original) RB can push a VERY HEAVY bullet with a stout charge of Swiss through a buffalo at any presentation, including end to end or sideways through 3 feet of skull. What more do ya NEED? Further, the MOST ACCURATE loads will use black.

 

That said one of the hotrodders back in the 1950s was working up very heavy loads for a blown out .30-06 case (might have been whelen messing with the .338) and after blowing up several '03 springfields, he bought and used old rollers and they NEVER blew up, (though he did manage to get cracks around the block pins using a 300 grain bullet at OH MY GOD velocities). They ain't exactly FRAIL, but will be much happier with nice BP loads even if ya wanna go to heavy bullets and spicey charges of Swiss.

 

Could that hotrodder been Col Hatcher?

[Uno Mas SASS #80082]

.

Gotta favorite smokeless powder for Marlin 1895 45-70 loads?

[Doc McGee, SASS #51213]

.

Gotta favorite smokeless powder for Marlin 1895 45-70 loads?

 

Ditto, been going to work up some loads for my 1895 Cowboy with 405 grain bullets.

 

PM is great.

 

Doc McGee

[Iron Pony]

For the roller or the marlins, IMHO dont bother with the XMP5744 unless they have reformulated it in recent history. Tried it in a Sharps and a Marlin both in 45-70 with no good results. Even with a good crimp on the 405 it left a huge amount of crap behind.

 

 

T

[Uno Mas SASS #80082]

.

Couple of pards told me that 305gr leads work well in the Marlin 1895s. And that 405grs are better suited for the single shot Shiloh Sharps types or really long range 1895 work. And several told me exactly the opposite. Thoughts?

 

And how 'bout Trail Boss as the powder?

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

And how 'bout Trail Boss as the powder?

 

Well, this may surprise you, if you are aware of the fact that I am great lover of Trail Boss.

 

I don't, and won't use Trail Boss for .45-70 for a couple of reasons. When I first started loading the caliber, the TB load for .45-70 was not included in the section in the IMR book that was listed as "Trapdoor Safe." Since the only gun I have in this caliber, at the moment, is a Trapdoor, I want to make sure that the load I use is safe. (And for that matter, if I ever do get an 86 Winchester, I'm gonna stay with the Trapdoor loads) Now, in later editions of the booklet, the Trail Boss load WAS listed in the Trapdoor safe section, but I noticed something very odd about it. It had a lower muzzle velocity and a HIGHER pressure than the 4895 and 4064 loads that I have used with excellent accuracy results. (I can hit a standard SASS type target at 300 yards. Not consistantly, but I have done it. The rifle is more accurate than I am!) Therefore, I don't use Trail Boss for .45-70, in spite of using for just about everything else.

 

 

By the way Uno, I keep forgetting to say this. I love your Avatar.

[Uno Mas SASS #80082]

...4895 and 4064 loads that I have used with excellent accuracy results...

 

By the way Uno, I keep forgetting to say this. I love your Avatar.

Thanks for the advice, HKU (and everyone else.) The RockChucker is on order (on sale at Midway until the 31st.) I'll look hard at those loads.

 

As for the avatar: I've got the full-sized lithograph from the Reagan Library hanging on my study wall. I keep it there - and as my avatar - to remind me that we had the answer to our national problems years ago.

 

I miss the Old Man. Especially now.