A toubling ruling from the summit

[Shooting Bull]

Nope - that is incorrect.

After the beep, but prior to the 1st round going downrange - the shooter "Shall be allowed" a clean start.

And if they do not achieve this "Clean start" - they may request a restart.

 

Unless the TO has notified the shooter PRIOR to the beep that this is your last restart - I see NO CIRCUMSTANCE where a TO may deny a restart request.

 

Shooter ready.

Standby.

BEEP.........(fumble - fumble) muttered curses "I need to start over"

"Nope - No restarts for you - get going, yer on the clock"

 

The above exchange would be unacceptable at any level of match.

 

And as Phantom pointed out - when one timer allows two restarts, another four and yet another timer decides that they will not allow any. Everyone is not shooting the same match.

 

If we need a restart rule - then we need one with objective standards.

I have never seen restarts abused - and have never had an issue with anyone that requested one (or two or even three).

To the best of my knowledge - I have never been beaten by a restart.

And if I have - then I am sure that is not the only place where I got beat by that shooter.

 

Okay, i misunderstood your original post. Sorry

 

I agree, if it's the very first time they should get a restart. Even second or third. But, like the rule says, "Multiple restarts by the same shooter, that in the judgment of the R.O. are seen to be taking advantage will not be entertained as they are not in the spirit of the game." That means, right or wrong, the decision is ultimately up to the R.O.

[Chuckaroo #13080 Regulator]

Creeker,

 

I was simply re-stating what PaleWolf did in post number 10. It is others tha thave decided it meant something else.

 

And, it can come after the beep. I don't know how it would be needed if before the beep?

 

Roo

[Guest diablo slim shootist]

Seems to me personally if it takes more than 3 times it borders

on abuse IMHO 3rd time you are on the clock no mater what.

[Cowhand,SASS#63559]

My thoughts on this .......its a gunfight game. So, being a gunfight and ... helping on the rules to keep it simple, I say, take what you create and do better next time . Just a thought... but will play by the rules SASS put forth .

 

Cowhand

[Snakebite]

Help me out here Creeker... where does it say this?

 

My contention is the TO cannot deny a restart request unless they have done so PRIOR to the beep.

 

Snakebite

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

Help me out here Creeker... where does it say this?

 

My contention is the TO cannot deny a restart request unless they have done so PRIOR to the beep.

 

Snakebite

 

 

I don't think it has to say it. IF the main reason to ever deny a restart is for abuse of restarts, then the TO would already have made a determination that the shooter was pushing the program based on prior restarts. It only seems FAIR not to have a chat ON THE CLOCK telling the feller he'd exceeded the TO's expectations of reasonable use of restarts. When a feller pushes the program too far, ya tell him after ya grant what you've determined will be his last restart, "yer beyond reasonable, and no more will be granted for minor crap" and he knows not to stand there like a dummy, ask and get shot down ON THE CLOCK.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Help me out here Creeker... where does it say this?

 

My contention is the TO cannot deny a restart request unless they have done so PRIOR to the beep.

 

Snakebite

 

 

Snakebite - It doesn't.

I just cannot believe, in the absence of a objective rule (i.e. the shooter may have x number of restarts - shooter MUST continue with the stage on start #X) that we would accept any ruling that says the TO may deny a restart without FIRST informing the shooter "Next one counts".

 

This is in direct conflict with:

Always read the rulebook from the shooters standpoint.

(the rulebook says "Restarts shall be allowed for a competitor to achieve a "clean" start, up to the point at which the first round goes down range. Multiple restarts by the same shooter, that in the judgment of the R.O. are seen to be taking advantage will not be entertained as they are not in the spirit of the game.")

 

From my standpoint (as a shooter) this simply means, I can't have unlimited restarts (as Chuckaroo mentions in his post).

Ok, no problem - then tell me how many restarts I can request?

One? Two? Three? Twenty seven?

And is every TO going to go with the same restart count?

 

What about these?

• The benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter

• Treat everyone equally (Sam Colt made us that way)

 

BoD to the shooter?

Not notifying a shooter of a TO "perceived" abuse of restarts before denying a restart is not BoD.

Treating everyone equally?

Everyone else knows when their stage begins - after the beep, after the 1st round goes downrange.

Except for the shooter that the TO has decided their stage begins at the beep.

Not equal treatment...at all.

 

I stand by my initial opinion.

The TO must notify the shooter before deciding they will allow no more restarts.

[Snakebite]

I don't think it has to say it. IF the main reason to ever deny a restart is for abuse of restarts, then the TO would already have made a determination that the shooter was pushing the program based on prior restarts. It only seems FAIR not to have a chat ON THE CLOCK telling the feller he'd exceeded the TO's expectations of reasonable use of restarts. When a feller pushes the program too far, ya tell him after ya grant what you've determined will be his last restart, "yer beyond reasonable, and no more will be granted for minor crap" and he knows not to stand there like a dummy, ask and get shot down ON THE CLOCK.

 

 

AJ... I don't disagree with a thing that you have said here. It is just a matter of who is in charge... the shooter or the T.O. The rules, and the entire SASS Rules Committee says that it is the T.O. If the T.O. is abusing the shooter in any manner, then he should be removed.... but it is a fact... THE T.O. IS IN CHARGE, not the Shooter. That is the ONLY thing that I've been stating.. anyone that thinks otherwise needs to understand the rules. Just because the T.O. is in charge does NOT make him right, and he can and should be held responsible for his actions.... but we must have order, and a chain of command.

 

If the shooter wants to file an appeal, (and he should if the T.O. is not following the rules, or is mistreating the shooter) then he should do it. If he is right, then the Range Master or the Match Director should see it and take the appropriate actions.

 

Right or Wrong, the Timer Operator is in charge on the Firing line. EOS!

 

Snakebite

[Blastmaster]

Snakebite - It doesn't.

I just cannot believe, in the absence of a objective rule (i.e. the shooter may have x number of restarts - shooter MUST continue with the stage on start #X) that we would accept any ruling that says the TO may deny a restart without FIRST informing the shooter "Next one counts".

 

This is in direct conflict with:

Always read the rulebook from the shooters standpoint.

(the rulebook says "Restarts shall be allowed for a competitor to achieve a "clean" start, up to the point at which the first round goes down range. Multiple restarts by the same shooter, that in the judgment of the R.O. are seen to be taking advantage will not be entertained as they are not in the spirit of the game.")

 

From my standpoint (as a shooter) this simply means, I can't have unlimited restarts (as Chuckaroo mentions in his post).

Ok, no problem - then tell me how many restarts I can request?

One? Two? Three? Twenty seven?

And is every TO going to go with the same restart count?

 

 

I stand by my initial opinion.

The TO must notify the shooter before deciding they will allow no more restarts. [/font][/font]

 

A 'good' TO would notify the shooter that the next restart is his last.

 

I've never seen a TO be a hardass about restarts.

 

A 'good' and fair and honorable shooter would be much more careful and deliberate and all those good things after fumbling with the first beep and after requesting a restart.

 

I've seen about two shooters in by career that took more than two start beeps and each restart was for a different reason,,, not to get the absolutely best of the best off the beep starts because of a major fumble.

 

 

If you have two good pards, there should be no problems with this restart topic.

 

Blastmaster

[Three Gun Cole]

If you have a good RO there usually isnt much need for more than 1 or 2 restarts in a 2 day match. Get one of the guys that doesnt like to give a stand by or some of the timers that arent very loud, and all bets are off I seen a timer try to start a guy 4 or 5 times and the shooter never moved, he just kept struggling with the timer, until the posse replaced him and then zip, bang the shooter went on the beep just like normal.

 

I don't like the idea that a timer operator could deceide to tell you , "sorry dude your on the clock, keep going" that just doesnt seem right.

 

 

3GC

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hello,

 

As this has been clarified in the past, it is nothing new. Just a restatement of a "common sense" treatment of a shooter.

 

At the summit, I heard the term "common sense" several times. I can see where some would have trouble with that. For example, how far can the shooter walk from the LT with loaded guns, ULT without showing clear... How far apart for a clean miss...

 

The point is that some things are dependent on the exact situation and judgement calls must be made. That is where the TO/RO/PM/MD discretion comes in. Folks complain we have too many rules too. If we eliminated the need for discretion, the rule books would be huge.

 

I do believe the TO should notify the shooter that she/he is pushing it and may not be granted any further restarts. Even then, another restart could be granted. I once saw a shooter, get up from a seated position and take off running. He fell in his face and skinned his hands. No one "in their right mind" would want a shooter to continue after something like that.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Uhhh...can I get a definition of what Common Sense is...and using this definition...I can then know when to stop allow restarts.

 

Thanks!!!!

 

Phantom

[Madd Mike #8595]

can I git the difference between

slipped gun or dropped gun

 

...................................past you make the call post...........

that was the question at a CAS Chrismas party

 

how can everything

be ddefined

common cents must apply sum where / somehow

 

oh well

[Steeldust Dan, SASS #2631Life]

I understand the issue of consistency, or rather the inconsistency, of application of this rule. I also understand the desire for our rules to allow flexibility--we see lots of posts covering issues most of us would have never dreamed would ever come up. So, what do we do?

 

Would all sides of the issue be happy with a compromise of say, limiting the number of restarts? For the sake of argument, lets say two restarts per stage, which would allow the shooter three times at bat, so to speak. How does that sound? Would some want to further limit the total number of restarts allowed per match?

 

I'm not sure how to make this rule more objective without doing away with it alltogether. I don't think, and I'm wrong a lot of times, that anyone is proposing this alternative.

 

For your consideration,

Steeldust Dan

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

I'd probably be happy with no restarts unless ya didn't hear the beep...or wasn't sure ya heard the beep so ya stopped cuz you thought you might have jumped the timer a bit.

 

Or if ya had a squib on the first round...just to be Cowboy like...and not too much of a harda$$.

 

[Blastmaster]

This isn't a problem at shoots that have less than 200 shooters. Have you ever noticed that?? People at those size matches don't get so bothered about such crap. They are there to have fun and can roll with the punches better than those that attend the big and famous matches...The organizers want everyone to enjoy themselves as does the shooters want the best for their fellow shooters. I don't see this back biting at smaller matches.

 

Just my opinion

 

 

Blastmaster

[Max Montana, SASS #23907]

Ya'll realize that almost to a person every post here is basically in agreement. Semantics and intent appear to be the minor differences. Frankly, this particular situation is probably the least freguent I've actually encountered on the shooting range. I've seen folks take mucho multiple restrarts cause they just have bad equipment. Other than that , maybe one or two occasions where the cowdude just didn't know what he/she was doin' and I kept starting him over.

 

There has only been one occasion where I felt like the shooter was trying to gain an advantage. And he/she only restarted twice. The first time he/she had a clean pickup on the shotgun, but the pump handle kinda dragged and required a "double clutch" to close the action. The second time was a clean pickup with a clean load, just not aimed right at the target. I heard him/her mutter as he unloaded the shell, "I can do that faster". I leaned in and whispered "yes you can, but this time you're on the clock unless you squib." In that instance I felt like he/she wasn't just trying to accomplish a clean start, but the very best start he could.

 

If ya'll really want ta argue 'bout somethin' then the RE-SHOOT is an area I see abused frequently. But, that's not this thread. I'll start a new one.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

So shooter starts to load his shotgun at the beep and drops his shells on the clock. TO says you are on the clock I don't give any reshoots or TO says you have had your one reshoot and you are on the clock. Shooter picks up his guns and goes to the unloading table. A while later shooter comes back to the line with a different TO, and completes the stage with no issues. Seems like shooter has more than one option.

 

P. S. Have seen a TO tell a fairly new shooter he does not give reshoots and required the shooter to continue after dropping 4 shotgun shells. Fortunately Posse Marshal asked the TO to find another job for the rest of the match and shooter given a reshoot in lieu of a restart. We are starting to make the TO job so difficult many of the good TOs will not do it any more and we see folks doing the job that should not be doing so.