A toubling ruling from the summit

[BJT]

From the summit comes a ruling that "Whether or not a restart is granted is up to the TO"

 

This decision is a horrible idea and not good for the shooter or the TO. If ever a TO should grant a reshoot to one shooter and deny a reshoot for another for any reason other than clearly stated, objective, documented reasons, impartiality becomes a serious question.

 

TOs and shooters deserve objective criteria for granting restarts, not personal judgement.

 

Very Best Regards,

BJT

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

From the summit comes a ruling that "Whether or not a restart is granted is up to the TO"

 

This decision is a horrible idea and not good for the shooter or the TO. If ever a TO should grant a reshoot to one shooter and deny a reshoot for another for any reason other than clearly stated, objective, documented reasons, impartiality becomes a serious question.

 

TOs and shooters deserve objective criteria for granting restarts, not personal judgement.

 

Very Best Regards,

BJT

 

With that kind of ruling, folks will want only their friends to run the timer when they shoot. Not a good decision IMHO.

[Mink Shoals Bandit, #49388]

Is this going to be a new rule? I thought re shoots were well addressed and defined in the current rule books.... Mink...........

[Mustang Gregg]

Guess I don't see no problem. Who else (besides the TO) would allow a re-shoot, if it is waranted?

It ain't up to the shooter. Or the crowd.

I don't reckon there will be a problem with impartiality.

 

The FEW times I've seen a re-shoot, it was a good thing.

 

Mustang Gregg

[Texas Jim Henry, SASS #20616]

Re-shoots and re-starts...

 

Two different animals.

 

Regards, TJH

[Three Gun Cole]

I smell trouble coming....

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Not good for me.

 

I get 2nd beeps a couple times every match.

 

I have a rated disability due to deafness and unless the TO is holding the timer close to my left ear WITH the buzzer pointing at my head, I can't hear the 'BEEP'.

And I can't hear it when the TO holds the timer with the 'buzzer' facing his palm.

 

Sometimes, the TO will forget and start me with the timer at my right ear and all I can do is stand there waiting. Then I get this little tap on my shoulder and I turn my head to hear the TO say: 'did you hear that?' "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, not on my right side I can't".

 

The problem with something like this is that I never see abuse of someone asking for a restart.

 

 

..........Widder

[Steeldust Dan, SASS #2631Life]

From the summit comes a ruling that "Whether or not a restart is granted is up to the TO"

 

This decision is a horrible idea and not good for the shooter or the TO. If ever a TO should grant a reshoot to one shooter and deny a reshoot for another for any reason other than clearly stated, objective, documented reasons, impartiality becomes a serious question.

 

TOs and shooters deserve objective criteria for granting restarts, not personal judgement.

 

Very Best Regards,

BJT

 

 

BJT,

 

Is it Restart or Reshoot? Isn't it up to the TO to grant restarts now? Could this ruling mean a TO determines if a restart is granted, based upon the existing criteria in the rules?

 

Steeldust Dan

[Rio Brazos Kid]

Hearing loss should not be a problem, unless the shooter makes it one.

 

Simply tell the TO, "Tap me on the shoulder when the buzzer goes off. I'm too deaf to hear it". We have people do this all the time. Just ask the TO to signal you. Now YOU can be the problem, if you fail to notify the TO of your hearing problem. Just get in the habit of asking him/her to signal you EVERY time you start a stage. Do this and you will have no problem.

 

RBK

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

That wasn't anything new...it was simply a reiteration of the existing rules regarding restarts in the SHB (pages 20-21) and the ROI (pages 22-23)

 

Restarts shall be allowed for a competitor to achieve a “clean” start, up to the point at which the first round goes down range. Multiple restarts by the same shooter, that in the judgment of the R.O. are seen to be taking advantage will not be entertained as they are not in the spirit of the game.

 

Primarily addressing MULTIPLE restarts & the point at which the T/O can say enough is enough.

If a shooter feels that s/he has been treated unfairly in that regard, there is an appeals process up through the 'chain of command'.

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

That wasn't anything new...it was simply a reiteration of the existing rules regarding restarts in the SHB (pages 20-21) and the ROI (pages 22-23)

 

 

 

Primarily addressing MULTIPLE restarts & the point at which the T/O can say enough is enough.

If a shooter feels that s/he has been treated unfairly in that regard, there is an appeals process up through the 'chain of command'.

 

Now that makes more sense. We all have at least heard of that uber-competitor who wants the moon phases to be exactly perfect before he accepts a beep........

[Blackwater 53393]

I see no trouble with the rule as written. I've shot with Widowmaker and can testify that he doesn't abuse the priviledge of the ocasional restart. As to the tap on the shoulder or whatever other mechanism you try to substitute for hearing the beep, none of them are totaly reliable nor are they accurate. Lots of folks here in the Southeast know and have shot with Owlhoot Hardin. He cannot hear a timer sound at all and gladly accepts the tap on the shoulder even though he and I have discussed the inherent inaccuracy of the peocedure. A couple of years ago I timed him and the tap was late. I offered him a reshoot and he declined.

 

The reason for the summit decision I suspect was to give the TOs the backing they need to help prevent abuse of the restart priviledge. You know, one or twice is okay in my estimation. I've even restarted twice on a stage recently myself. It was a bad rifle cartridge and a good TO. After a couple of tries or fumbles the TO should have the option of warning the shooter or offering to allow the shooter to step aside and collect himself or herself by moving to the end of the line, or something of that nature. Most all of the timer operators I've encountered were pretty fair and evenhanded when confronted with the restart situation.

 

We're all here to have fun whether a top competitor or newby.

 

Let's give the TOs a little credit for doin' things the cowboy way, (read that being fair and impartial).

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

I have seen the re-start abused ,,,,,,,,, Not offten but I have seen it used in a "Buddy" kind of way ....

 

One shoot I was at, in 10 stages this person had 32 re-starts the same guy always TO'd for him ..... And was Possie Marshall ....

 

But as no-one was winning any Cadilac's it didn't really bother me that much ....

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Blastmaster]

I have no problem with the ruling. PW restated it in post #10.

 

 

I have not seen the restart ruling abused by either the shooter or the TO in any shoots that I've partisipated in.

 

If anything, I am more likely to see a middle/lower of the pack shooter needing a restart (not very often) beccause of severe fumbling of the first gun, but s/he struggles through and has a higher time that what they could've gotten.

 

As one poster has mentioned,, yep there are 'those' buddies out there that 'help' each other out pretty darn good. I am fortunite to have not seen them....yet.

 

Blastmaster

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Hearing loss should not be a problem, unless the shooter makes it one.

 

Simply tell the TO, "Tap me on the shoulder when the buzzer goes off. I'm too deaf to hear it". We have people do this all the time. Just ask the TO to signal you. Now YOU can be the problem, if you fail to notify the TO of your hearing problem. Just get in the habit of asking him/her to signal you EVERY time you start a stage. Do this and you will have no problem.

 

RBK

 

 

There have been a couple of those 'Tap on the shoulder' situations that managed to hit my hat. No Thank you!

 

I do inform every TO to start me with the timer facing my left ear. And I might add, I've received the utmost curtesy.

 

If you noticed in my earlier post, I stated that 'sometimes the TO will forget'. This indicates that it was requested that the timer be on my left.

 

Anyhow, after all this being said, I think PWB has satisfied us with his post.

 

Thanks PWB

 

 

..........Widder

[Roy's creek Dan, SASS 73697]

What Palewolf said

Nothing more

Nothing less

Thats the way it's always been.

RCD

[Shooting Bull]

I like it. And based on a thread from a month or so ago, it was needed.

[Madd Mike #8595]

What Palewolf said

Nothing more

Nothing less

Thats the way it's always been.

RCD

 

yup

I waz there

 

they were simply saying

continue tooooooooo

 

use common cents, apply it as necessary along with good judgement

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

The problem that I have with Rules that are based on someone using common sense to decide whether a penalty should be applied (penalty = no restart), is that it purely subjective.

 

Every posse is run with differing criteria.

 

[Madd Mike #8595]

I think the comon cents thing (as discussed at the tg convetion meetin) is ment for for

 

hay, you are requesting t00-many restarts (fumbeled shells type things)

 

that is the way I took the meaning each and every time it was brung up at the TG meeting

 

you guys gotta sit in

and hear some of the silly-stuff brought up at the convention by tg's

 

soon ya gotta say

geeeeeese

use comon cents at yer home club

lets move on to the agenda again

not what happened for the 1st time at one of yer shoots

[MMJ#89586]

In every sport there is the human element of judging the action and fouls. It's life.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

In every sport there is the human element of judging the action and fouls. It's life.

 

Ooookay...I'll give ya that...kinda. If'n ya mean that you can't completely eliminate the human element...but you can minimize it.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

I think the comon cents thing (as discussed at the tg convetion meetin) is ment for for

 

hay, you are requesting t00-many restarts (fumbeled shells type things)

 

that is the way I took the meaning each and every time it was brung up at the TG meeting

 

you guys gotta sit in

and hear some of the silly-stuff brought up at the convention by tg's

 

soon ya gotta say

geeeeeese

use comon cents at yer home club

lets move on to the agenda again

not what happened for the 1st time at one of yer shoots

 

Oh I know what yer talkin about MM...all one has to do is go through the posse marshal walkthrough at WR

 

But...

 

Outside of using some crazy number...like 100 times...or 50 times...when ya got one posse leader that sayz 2 is too much and another that sayz 4 is too much...then ya got two diffferent matches going on.

 

Ya know?

 

Phantom

PS: Have a GREAT Christmas MM!!!!!!!!

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

Oh I know what yer talkin about MM...all one has to do is go through the posse marshal walkthrough at WR

 

But...

 

Outside of using some crazy number...like 100 times...or 50 times...when ya got one posse leader that sayz 2 is too much and another that sayz 4 is too much...then ya got two diffferent matches going on.

 

Ya know?

 

Phantom

PS: Have a GREAT Christmas MM!!!!!!!!

 

 

I think some amount of judgement is fair. We often have to make a "gut" call as to when we are being "played" and when somebody is just legitimately having a bad day. If Mr Uber competitor is calling for a restart because he don't like the way he picked up and shouldered his rifle, or he don't like the way he drew his pistol, there gets to be a point where ya tell him, "Next time you hear the "beep" you own it".

But if a new guy or a seasoned citizen or joe average is having a bad day, is all thumbs, ya MIGHT give him or her a little more leeway and still be "fair"......

 

AAMOF, ya might have a situation wher ya had to clamp down on a "gamey" abuser of the system, then as RO ya actually suggest to a fumbling shooter who maybe drops a shotshell or whatever, "why don't we try this again" (cuz often they won't ask).

[Snakebite]

From the summit comes a ruling that "Whether or not a restart is granted is up to the TO"

 

This decision is a horrible idea and not good for the shooter or the TO. If ever a TO should grant a reshoot to one shooter and deny a reshoot for another for any reason other than clearly stated, objective, documented reasons, impartiality becomes a serious question.

 

TOs and shooters deserve objective criteria for granting restarts, not personal judgement.

 

Very Best Regards,

BJT

 

That sounds like a really good idea to me, and I encourage all Timer Operators to operate under those guides.... there should only be a GOOD reason.... and that determination is up to the the person in charge.... which is the Timer Operator. I'm sure that at least most of us understand that someone has to be in charge. The rule books say that person is the Timer Operator. I am aware of the fact that a few shooters think that they are in charge when they are shooting a stage... I even had one shooter stop in the middle of a stage, at a MAJOR match and DEMAND a restart ... Bad move!

 

If for some legitamate reason you want a restart, ask the T.O. If the T.O. refuses, then finish the stage and appeal the call. There is NOTHING horrible about this idea. It has been on the books since the RO I was created.

 

Snakebite

[Shooting Bull]

there should only be a GOOD reason.... and that determination is up to the the person in charge.... which is the Timer Operator. I'm sure that at least most of us understand that someone has to be in charge. The rule books say that person is the Timer Operator. I am aware of the fact that a few shooters think that they are in charge when they are shooting a stage...

 

 

This should be fun. Where's that popcorn eating smiley?

[Blastmaster]

Anyone here ever been gigged/been-refused for asking for a 'restart' when you are the shooter?

 

Anyone here as the acting TO gigged/refused a shooter for asking for a 'restart'?

 

 

 

I haven't on both cases.

 

I asked for a restart just this last weekend at a monthly and the TO willingly granted it to me . I believe it could have been my first request for the entire year of 2010. OK, I am old, double the request and make it two for the year.

 

I believe I could tell if a shooter was abusing the restart request and would deal with it. As someone mentioned, I would inform the shooter that the next beep was all his and he best do his best at the start.

 

Blastmaster

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

When you want your rule book skinny, you need to apply common sense. I've seldom seen this abused, but since it is allowed, everybody can get the chance to use it. Seems most of the restarts I've seen go to newer shooters who fumble several seconds away and the TO stops them before the first round. Many times it's the SG and fumbled rounds.

 

Since most of the time there isn't much at stake, have at it. If you abuse the system, your honor suffers. What else do we have in common except honor?

 

CR

[Max Montana, SASS #23907]

As a shooter I've had very little problem with this rule. The times I've taken a re-start are very few. More often I've had TO's ask me afterward why I didn't take a re-start when I fumbled at the beginning or a bad round that didn't ignite. Frankly, I just forget too. But, I do believe that every shooter should be able to get a clean start to the stage. It's a rule I will try to remember.

 

As a TO I'm extremely lenient to the shooter in this regard. I've stopped shooters the second time they try to load a shotgun or re-lever a rifle or draw/pickup the wrong gun. I believe this to be in good sportsmanship, giving the benefit of the doubt to the shooter, or in a mild stretch, helping the shooter keep his wits about him which will make him safer moving through the stage.

 

I have been disappointed in a very few limited situations where a TO/match director announce that certain actions will not constitute a re-start. Either the point of committment is the first round down range or it isn't. Interjecting exceptions to this only opens the door for different interpretations. First shot down range is very black & white. Abusers will become obvious and there are avenues available to TO's, Posse Marshals, berm marshals, etc. to deal with these exceptions.

 

In general, I see no reason to make a mountain out of a molehill. Follow what Palewolf said and ya cain't go wrong!

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

I have been disappointed in a very few limited situations where a TO/match director announce that certain actions will not constitute a re-start. Either the point of committment is the first round down range or it isn't. First shot down range is very black & white.

 

 

THIS is the rule - Nothing else.

Until the shooter crosses this line (first round downrange) - they DO NOT own the stage and may request a restart.

Understand "Shall be allowed" means THE SHOOTER has the option to another restart, not that the TO may grant or deny it.

 

I don't understand why this process annoys folks so much.

If I ever beat Max Montana, Widdermaker or any of a 1000 other great shooters - I want it to be on their best day.

Not on the day that they were not granted a restart when they deserved it.

And I am pretty sure they feel the same way about the folks they are competing against as well.

[Shooting Bull]

THIS is the rule - Nothing else.

Until the shooter crosses this line (first round downrange) - they DO NOT own the stage and may request a restart.

Understand "May request a restart" means THE SHOOTER has the option to another restart, not that the TO may grant or deny it.

 

I don't understand why this process annoys folks so much.

If I ever beat Max Montana, Widdermaker or any of a 1000 other great shooters - I want it to be on their best day.

Not on the day that they were not granted a restart when they deserved it.

And I am pretty sure they feel the same way about the folks they are competing against as well.

 

 

I think (I usually get in trouble when I start a sentence with those words. ) the two statements I've highlighted are completely seperate entities. What I mean is yes, the shooter MAY REQUEST a restart. But the TO is the one who decides whether or not it's granted. And I'm pretty sure that's spelled out in the rules.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

The reality...or Phantom's reality...is that peer-pressure usually takes care of the restart abuser...is this how you spell abuser...?????

 

So no need for a rule...therefore skinnier rule book...is that how you spell skinnier...?????

 

Cheers!

Phantom

[Chuckaroo #13080 Regulator]

Creeker,

 

The shooter does not have unlimted restarts.

 

The explanation given at the convention affirms that the TO can refuse a restart in some instances. Usually for abuse of the restart request.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

I think (I usually get in trouble when I start a sentence with those words. ) the two statements I've highlighted are completely seperate entities. What I mean is yes, the shooter MAY REQUEST a restart. But the TO is the one who decides whether or not it's granted. And I'm pretty sure that's spelled out in the rules.

 

 

Nope - that is incorrect.

After the beep, but prior to the 1st round going downrange - the shooter "Shall be allowed" a clean start.

And if they do not achieve this "Clean start" - they may request a restart.

 

Unless the TO has notified the shooter PRIOR to the beep that this is your last restart - I see NO CIRCUMSTANCE where a TO may deny a restart request.

 

Shooter ready.

Standby.

BEEP.........(fumble - fumble) muttered curses "I need to start over"

"Nope - No restarts for you - get going, yer on the clock"

 

The above exchange would be unacceptable at any level of match.

 

And as Phantom pointed out - when one timer allows two restarts, another four and yet another timer decides that they will not allow any. Everyone is not shooting the same match.

 

If we need a restart rule - then we need one with objective standards.

I have never seen restarts abused - and have never had an issue with anyone that requested one (or two or even three).

To the best of my knowledge - I have never been beaten by a restart.

And if I have - then I am sure that is not the only place where I got beat by that shooter.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Creeker,

 

The shooter does not have unlimted restarts.

 

The explanation given at the convention affirms that the TO can refuse a restart in some instances. Usually for abuse of the restart request.

 

Chuck - I have never contended that the shooter has unlimited restarts - that is not the rule (nor have I ever seen a shooter request unlimited restarts).

My contention is the TO cannot deny a restart request unless they have done so PRIOR to the beep.

 

Are you saying the TO has the "authority" to make the decision to deny a restart WITHOUT notifying the shooter?