WTC: Target failure benefits shooter

[Captain Bill Burt]

10 minutes ago, wyliefoxEsquire said:

Agreed, My post was a comment in general regarding TO's not doing the job.   

Regarding Prop Failures, broken clays and tombstone racks with sympathetic falls can be examples of Failure.  I have never experienced anyone asking for a reshoot after a broken clay or sympathetic plate fall.  As PWB quoted Timer Operator should be prepared to make a determination of whether or not the shooter shall continue the course of fire or cease fire immediately   .  My point, in the OP, it was clear that the TO did nothing regarding the Failure and therefore gave the shooter an unfair advantage.  The TO did not go against any SASS rules/guidelines.   From the OP "In the end, it was a huge advantage for this "lucky shooter" who took his chance. So, what's your call and thoughts? "  IMO, unless the match guidelines state how to handle the pendulum Prop Failure, the actions (or lack of) of the TO could determine winners of the annual match.

 

 

I don't believe a decision like that should be left to individual TOs during a match.  If an MD is going to have a stage like that, it's incumbent on him to tell the PMs ahead of time how a prop failure should be dealt with.  As a TO, in the absence of that guidance I'm not going to stop a shooter due to a prop failure unless there's a safety issue. 

[Hoss]

I guess the problem I see with a reshoot for prop failure is what happens if shooter say has a couple of misses, maybe even a P. Gets to last stage  a shotgun target has fallen down. We all know “shoot where it was”. But now shooter does that, but claims right to a re-shoot due to prop failure. That would not be right either. It’s a sticky wicket to start doing reshoots for prop failure (that is not a safety concern). And yes, I see the difference in the OP and my scenario. Extreme on both sides. But where do we draw the line? 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

5 minutes ago, Hoss said:

But where do we draw the line? 

At Championship level matches...all prop / target failures are reshoots.

 

How else do you keep a competition consistent? 

 

No need to respond...I'm not into your mocking.

 

Phantom

[Griff]

A prop failure such as described in the OP is a major deviation in the match.  If the prop cannot be repaired to operate correctly, the stage should be deleted from the match.  Essentially, there were two different stages shot by the competitors.  Allowing scores to stand for such a variance is, in effect, disadvantaging a number of shooters.,  This is not unprecedented.  IMO, if a match is scheduled such that a few reshoots cannot be allowed, it has ignored Mr. Murphy to its own detriment.  there's a vast difference between a simple shotgun KD falling over and a moving target that becomes another stationary target during the course of a match.  While the first time a shooter encounters a shotgun KD that's toppled from the wind or sympathetic falling from adjoining targets may be momentarily off-putting, it has certainly occurred often enough that nearly everyone merely goes on about the business of finishing the stage.

[Griff]

1 hour ago, Hoss said:

I guess the problem I see with a reshoot for prop failure is what happens if shooter say has a couple of misses, maybe even a P. Gets to last stage  a shotgun target has fallen down. We all know “shoot where it was”. But now shooter does that, but claims right to a re-shoot due to prop failure. That would not be right either. It’s a sticky wicket to start doing reshoots for prop failure (that is not a safety concern). And yes, I see the difference in the OP and my scenario. Extreme on both sides. But where do we draw the line? 

The rules used to state that all penalties carried over in reshoots... it was changed many, many years ago;  now only safeties carry forward.  Nothing to see here, some days you're the bug, some days you're the windshield.  As I recall, prop failures have always called for a reshoot, when possible.  It's a wholly different matter when the posses that shot a stage on day one, when it worked perfectly, compared to day two when a recalcitrant prop stopped working.  

Edited October 24 by Griff

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

1 hour ago, Hoss said:

I guess the problem I see with a reshoot for prop failure is what happens if shooter say has a couple of misses, maybe even a P. Gets to last stage  a shotgun target has fallen down. We all know “shoot where it was”. But now shooter does that, but claims right to a re-shoot due to prop failure. That would not be right either. It’s a sticky wicket to start doing reshoots for prop failure (that is not a safety concern). And yes, I see the difference in the OP and my scenario. Extreme on both sides. But where do we draw the line? 

 

IMO...that line already exists.

There's a significant difference between a KD that "fails or is downed" (covered under STAGE CONVENTIONS SHB p.13) and a "prop failure" (as defined in the RO2).

[Hoss]

6 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

IMO...that line already exists.

There's a significant difference between a KD that "fails or is downed" (covered under STAGE CONVENTIONS SHB p.13) and a "prop failure" (as defined in the RO2).

I agree. And I posted an extreme. It’s just drawing the line between continue and “shoot where it was” and a situation like the OP. 
that’s why some stages are a hoot to shoot at a monthly but no bueno for a major match.  Mine carts, birds, other “action props” are best avoided at some matches. 99% will do “the cowboy way” but a minority exists that will take advantage of a situation. 

[Vail Vigilante]

From my other 3 gun event....

If a rifle-pistol target fails, put rounds close to the area in the same number you would have needed had it not failed.

If a shotgun clay bird is launched broken....pick out the biggest piece and shoot at that......how we handle it in a local 3 gun match I like.....this has the effect of limiting the number of re-shoots, yet still has the fun of clay shooting.

Now for the shotgun on poppers and spinners, etc.... before the match determine if a one-round-multi-hit is legal.  In one event, a tactical shotgun event in Phoenix, it was.  In other events I have seen, you have to shoot the number of rounds that is at least equal to the number of steel targets. This is communicated in the morning shooters briefing.

The thing is would these black swans hurt or help a competitor? Well, yes. But those things happen. They do in all sports. Over the course of a lifetime of shooting, it will all "come out in the wash".

[Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963]

On 10/23/2024 at 8:05 AM, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Buncha BS.

 

The prop failure hurt all the other shooters that didn't get a static target.

 

Whoever would accept their time on a Swinger stage where the Swinger didn't "Swing" is someone that I don't want to have anything to do with. They're cheaters in my book.

 

Phantom

Dude, i get what youre saying but the shooter does not have option to stop shooting as the rules are written. If we had to grant reshoots everytime rolling stock or bowling balls failed at winter range we'd still be finishing matches from 12 yrs ago.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

19 minutes ago, Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963 said:

Dude, i get what youre saying but the shooter does not have option to stop shooting as the rules are written. If we had to grant reshoots everytime rolling stock or bowling balls failed at winter range we'd still be finishing matches from 12 yrs ago.

I'm not saying that he/she should stop shooting.

 

You know as well as anyone that crazy stuff has all but been eliminated at large championship type matches. I'm just leaning towards advocating that if a target fails in any way that the shooter must reshoot. This is the only way to keep a match from being nothing more that a dress-up event that has some irrelevant shooting mixed in.

 

Phantom

[Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001]

ya pay your money and ya take your chances 

 

   NEXT SHOOTER !!! 

[Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963]

On 10/24/2024 at 12:22 PM, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

 

You know as well as anyone that crazy stuff has all but been eliminated at large championship type matches. 

 

Phantom

I actually didnt know that! That bowling ball was the last straw for me. I havent been back since '12.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

On 10/25/2024 at 3:16 PM, Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001 said:

ya pay your money and ya take your chances 

 

   NEXT SHOOTER !!! 

"Next shooter"... Such dismissive responses show that many don't see CAS as a true competition. 

 

Phantom 

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

Every shooting sport has both competition and entertainment value. Similar to speed vs accuracy. The balance in both examples vary from one sport to another. 50/50, 80/20 and so on. On many topics within SASS it is identified that it leans more to the entertainment side of the equation.