1887 fails to fully cock?

[July Smith]

I recently picked up an original Winchester 1887.  According to the previous owner the gun had been gone through and inspected by a smith before I acquired it.  It looks good, feeds and ejects reliably.  Other than having the chamber lengthened for use with modern hulls the gun is in otherwise stock/original condition no drop two or any modifications along those lines.  The issue I am having is when I run the lever fast the hammer will occasionally not fully cock but be resting in the half cock safety.  I plan to strip down the gun for a deep cleaning and inspect the sears but I am not a smith, is there anything I should look for check or try?   

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Sounds like a too-aggressive trigger job has been done, and the hammer's full cock notch doesn't hold under rapid fire.  If trigger pull is lighter than about 4 or 5 pounds, or the hammer will move forward slightly (under close examination or feel) when you pull trigger, the angles have been stoned wrong during "going through."  Don't do work on the fire control system unless you have the proper sear stones and a trigger pull gauge.

 

But also make sure you are not pulling trigger slightly when running a lever cycle.   You could be inducing the hammer to fall to half-cock with that.

 

good luck, GJ

[July Smith]

32 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

But also make sure you are not pulling trigger slightly when running a lever cycle.   You could be inducing the hammer to fall to half-cock with that.

That was my first thought.  I deliberately ran the lever with my finger well outside the trigger guard and still experienced this issue.  

 

I do not have a trigger gauge but I would definitely described the pull as "light" or sub 5lbs. 

[Kid Rich]

The 87 has a LONG lever throw, you may not be opening it quite far enough, or it may have a little dirt or debris internally. First thing I would do is clean it thoroughly  and then make sure the lever is being opened all the way.

kR

[July Smith]

8 minutes ago, Kid Rich said:

The 87 has a LONG lever throw, you may not be opening it quite far enough, or it may have a little dirt or debris internally. First thing I would do is clean it thoroughly  and then make sure the lever is being opened all the way.

kR

If I run the gun slow and deliberately the gun functions fine.  It's when I run the lever quickly it will occasionally go to half cock.  The carrier is not lifted until the very end of the stroke and because the gun is feeding fine I seriously doubt I am short stroking the lever.

[Kid Rich]

 I use an 87 as my main match sg for the last several years and haven't had that problem. I would suspect a small amount of dirt or debris in the sear or the trigger is not engaging the sear fast enough when you lever fast.

kR

[Reverend P. Babcock Chase]

Howdy July,

 

I have no experience with original 87's but my (and I believe other) chinese copies have trouble with the now standard 2 3/4" shells as the mechanism was originally designed around the 2 1/2" shells common at the time of design. That is one of the reasons that it is recommended to "run it like you stole it". I have found that trimmed and roll crimped shells are more reliable in my 87. 

 

I know that you didn't ask, but there it is for after you get the initial problem resolved.

 

Rev. Chase

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

I have an original that did that.  Adjusted the sear angle, compared the hammer notches to another 87 and a bunch of other things and the thing just gave me fits.  Finally I swapped the trigger spring with a working 87 and voila it worked.  Could not feel a difference in the springs but 87s need a strong trigger spring.  The old one had weakened just enough that when the lever hit the lower tang the trigger was bounced out of the full cock notch.  Sometimes it is the simple things that cause the problem.  By the way, the trigger spring is a PITA to change because it is short and stiff and hard to get the retaining screw started.  Try levering slowly.  If the hammer is on full cock reopen the lever and slam the lever closed firmly.  If the hammer drops I would look at the trigger spring.

[July Smith]

51 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Try levering slowly.  If the hammer is on full cock reopen the lever and slam the lever closed firmly.  If the hammer drops I would look at the trigger spring.

This is exactly what I have experienced!  Thanks!  Will check it out.  Where would one find a new trigger spring for an original 87?

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Can you cock it by hand?

[July Smith]

18 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Can you cock it by hand?

Yes.  The gun is otherwise fine until you start to run fast with it.  

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Compare these two trigger springs.  The top one is clean and the surface smooth.  The bottom one is pitted and rough from rust.  That is how mine looked.  I have five or six 87s and it is amazing that the trigger springs rust event though they are mounted to the upper tang.  I guess they seldom get lubricated or cleaned because they are hard to reach.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255961589871?hash=item3b987fe86f:g:uBsAAOSwqDtj3dRs&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA0CW7%2BaVv2YxgurOsT2tw0hEd%2B3HdhMY8G2rwSONykhzIiLNfVEZaNlmCOrzjx%2BSEx%2BTBgx%2BmCcmycjqs551e%2FVz2ob1YxtBZAQ2tVcaFkQc0p2XzIYxmypXvXKb3RIAw%2F5XsIOaL7dvXd5bwGzoUN743SoXXHudvGofI5uqit9Ajlu8ycCipyv4BOgBrDMUnmrV27Mie%2FHFRql3TrKR%2BcpG83hKXQycSCaawLUzCYHUxkBTLjHnO7vgYIvThiWSFgGCN2UZfxmLmWmIP6CjxWx0%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR_a53dHpYQ

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/385500672884?hash=item59c1a17374&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAABAD3HNZYyBTjXMvuamI1tfhPV9v4aE%2BLUp9OYxGhZCrt0hSbSVfRkrW02uIKLHhlGTfABV1D5DmTA1FGV0PwImLSeF1fiXdJarXCEVwHbY8IDgGMDujUq6CaFnq5kxyqZG0Gar9zEloyCJr%2FicoYUxRyBMohcCEupbH%2F232UDFyNAjsygR5idWlaHCPTQgp6Juu9rycYY4l5NOkiW3AqN7nCOjPW0snAYdS1X0VIXnM8bSGoCqbZw9DnSCKhlxj%2F2RXU7OFpVbCfNWBrDu1z0V6HpWC0jToR%2FDZ2LSdLG2Aa0X6FHRezTTHmbhOW1RR%2BslSahGPYYNhPMIYGqPjCg8DM%3D|ampid%3APL_CLK

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

2 hours ago, July Smith said:

Yes.  The gun is otherwise fine until you start to run fast with it.  

Post pictures of the hammer notch and trigger with the spring 

[July Smith]

I'll post pictures when able.  Probably have to be after Easter.

[July Smith]

Larsen Pettifogger once again was spot on with this issue.  After replacing the old trigger spring with a new(ish) one from ebay the gun works without any issue now.  On top is the new one. 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Yep, that new one is quite a bit thicker and shorter, and it has more bend built in to "pre-load" the trigger before any spring flex even occurs, so it provides a LOT more pressure on the trigger to hold it into engagement with the sear/hammer notch.

 

glad it works now!   GJ

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

7 hours ago, July Smith said:

Larsen Pettifogger once again was spot on with this issue.  After replacing the old trigger spring with a new(ish) one from ebay the gun works without any issue now.  On top is the new one. 

Order at least 1 spare if not 2.

[July Smith]

On 4/17/2023 at 4:31 PM, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Order at least 1 spare if not 2.

Is this a part that often wears out?  

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

2 hours ago, July Smith said:

Is this a part that often wears out?  

Getting hard to find

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

No.

[Will Kane]

Howdy, July.

Did you shoot your 87 at Comancheria Days?

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

42 minutes ago, Will Kane said:

Howdy, July.

Did you shoot your 87 at Comancheria Days?

No, he was on my posse.  But he did get a hot 44-40 brass down the back of his shirt after taking off his hat due to high winds. 

[Will Kane]

Yikes!!!