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Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118

New rule-leaving the loading table with a cocked rifle

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Posted (edited)

It was pointed out a recent match by the Territorial Governor that if the shooter comes to the line with a cocked rifle and the shooter sets the rifle down and releases it from his/her hands the SDQ penalty is earned. The condition must be recognized before the shooter releases the rifle in order to determine if there is a live round in the chamber, and any the penalty earned or if they can continue on the stage.

 

TB

Edited by Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118
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That may be the interpretation that TG used on current rules plus the change, but I haven't heard that anywhere and it's not on the RO Instructor Wire.  I just posted there for clarification.

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Wouldn't that follow the "Safe conditions during a course of fire - rifles" on Pg 16. "A rifle is considered safe to leave a shooter's hands in the following conditions only: hammer fully down on an empty chamber..."?

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The follow up to the rule is just that, laying the rifle down, leaving the shooters control, on half or full cock remains a SDQ. The double jeopardy now is, the shooter will still be required to bring the rifle to full cock, if it already isn't, point it down range and pull the trigger. No bang just a SDQ. A bang a second SDQ which then becomes a MDQ. This was discussed and confirmed after the rule change was passed. So you guys wanted a rule change huh?

Ike

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9 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Wouldn't that follow the "Safe conditions during a course of fire - rifles" on Pg 16. "A rifle is considered safe to leave a shooter's hands in the following conditions only: hammer fully down on an empty chamber..."?

 

A rifle is safe to leave the shooters hands in many different configurations during the course of fire:

 

SHB pg 16.

Quote

A rifle is considered SAFE to leave the shooter’s hands in the following condition only: - Empty. - Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or spent round, action closed (restaged for further use).

 

However, staging the rifle before the beep is not "during the course of fire"

 

SHB pg 43

Quote

Course of fire – from the beep of the timer once the shooter has signified “ready” to last shot fired

 

The stage conventions would apply

 

SHB pg 15

Quote

Rifles  may  be  staged  with  the  magazine  loaded,  action  closed,  hammer  fully  down on  the  empty  chamber  (NOT  the  safety  notch),  with  the  muzzle  pointing  in  a  safe direction  (adheres  to  the  170°  rule). 

 

Until the new rule book is in place, it is purely speculative.

 

 

 

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Please stand by for an ROC ruling on this

 

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In the ruling follow-up...if at the loading table, the rifle leaves the shooters hand (which it clearly will)...how is that different than the OP scenario/question mixed with all the other thoughts above?

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8 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

The follow up to the rule is just that, laying the rifle down, leaving the shooters control, on half or full cock remains a SDQ. 

 

Laying a cocked, loaded rifle down has never been a SDQ unless the round is in the chamber

 

Quote

Discarding a long gun containing a live round in the chamber (once it leaves the shooter’s hands)  

 

I am still trying to figure out how to rationalize the SDQ. About the only thing I could figure was:

 

Quote

Not adhering to loading or unloading procedures

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My recommendation would be the following. Once the shooter relinquishes possession of the rifle and the hammer is not fully down, they open the action and proceed to the unloading table, SDQ. They do not get the opportunity to remedy the situation by pointing the rifle to the back of the bay and pulling the trigger. No double jeopardy, just a SDQ.  

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11 minutes ago, Assassin said:

My recommendation would be the following. Once the shooter relinquishes possession of the rifle and the hammer is not fully down, they open the action and proceed to the unloading table, SDQ. They do not get the opportunity to remedy the situation by pointing the rifle to the back of the bay and pulling the trigger. No double jeopardy, just a SDQ.  

As Branchwater mentioned laying a cocked loaded gun down isn’t a SDQ unless there is a round in the chamber and we don’t assess multiple SDQs for the same action.

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46 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

As Branchwater mentioned laying a cocked loaded gun down isn’t a SDQ unless there is a round in the chamber and we don’t assess multiple SDQs for the same action.

My recommendation. Didn't want to get into a rule interpretation dispute. 

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2 hours ago, Smokey Bandit said:

In the ruling follow-up...if at the loading table, the rifle leaves the shooters hand (which it clearly will)...how is that different than the OP scenario/question mixed with all the other thoughts above?

 

There is no penalty for a cocked firearm leaving the shooter's hands at the loading table.

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9 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Please stand by for an ROC ruling on this

 

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Assassin, not sure where you've been but the rule change has been voted in and took effect 1/1/20. Shooter coming to the line with a rifle in that condition now must bring the rifle to full cock, if it isn't already, point it down range and pull the trigger. No bang no call. Bang SDQ.

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It seems to me this rule change is intended to reflect a belief that leaving the loading table with a cocked hammer (rifle) over an empty chamber should not carry a penalty. I would think that as long as the shooter can establish that the chamber is empty no penalty should apply. The question that leads to is what if the shooter starts the stage with a cocked hammer? Do they get a penalty? If so what? Can they cure it on the clock the same way they would if it was discovered before the beep?

 

Lets say the shooter starts the course of fire P-R-S and while he is shooting the pistols an official, TO maybe, notices the rifle is cocked? What then?

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5 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

It seems to me this rule change is intended to reflect a belief that leaving the loading table with a cocked hammer (rifle) over an empty chamber should not carry a penalty. I would think that as long as the shooter can establish that the chamber is empty no penalty should apply. The question that leads to is what if the shooter starts the stage with a cocked hammer? Do they get a penalty? If so what? Can they cure it on the clock the same way they would if it was discovered before the beep?

 

Lets say the shooter starts the course of fire P-R-S and while he is shooting the pistols an official, TO maybe, notices the rifle is cocked? What then?

 

That is one of the scenarios presented to the ROC for a definitive call based on current rules/penalties.

 

 

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Unintended consequences! 

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Posted (edited)

There are no "unintended consequences" involved...just a matter of applying the current rules to a given scenario.

 

3 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Please stand by for an ROC ruling on this

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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