Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118 Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 It was pointed out a recent match by the Territorial Governor that if the shooter comes to the line with a cocked rifle and the shooter sets the rifle down and releases it from his/her hands the SDQ penalty is earned. The condition must be recognized before the shooter releases the rifle in order to determine if there is a live round in the chamber, and any the penalty earned or if they can continue on the stage. TB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 That may be the interpretation that TG used on current rules plus the change, but I haven't heard that anywhere and it's not on the RO Instructor Wire. I just posted there for clarification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 Wouldn't that follow the "Safe conditions during a course of fire - rifles" on Pg 16. "A rifle is considered safe to leave a shooter's hands in the following conditions only: hammer fully down on an empty chamber..."? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 The follow up to the rule is just that, laying the rifle down, leaving the shooters control, on half or full cock remains a SDQ. The double jeopardy now is, the shooter will still be required to bring the rifle to full cock, if it already isn't, point it down range and pull the trigger. No bang just a SDQ. A bang a second SDQ which then becomes a MDQ. This was discussed and confirmed after the rule change was passed. So you guys wanted a rule change huh? Ike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 9 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said: Wouldn't that follow the "Safe conditions during a course of fire - rifles" on Pg 16. "A rifle is considered safe to leave a shooter's hands in the following conditions only: hammer fully down on an empty chamber..."? A rifle is safe to leave the shooters hands in many different configurations during the course of fire: SHB pg 16. Quote A rifle is considered SAFE to leave the shooter’s hands in the following condition only: - Empty. - Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or spent round, action closed (restaged for further use). However, staging the rifle before the beep is not "during the course of fire" SHB pg 43 Quote Course of fire – from the beep of the timer once the shooter has signified “ready” to last shot fired The stage conventions would apply SHB pg 15 Quote Rifles may be staged with the magazine loaded, action closed, hammer fully down on the empty chamber (NOT the safety notch), with the muzzle pointing in a safe direction (adheres to the 170° rule). Until the new rule book is in place, it is purely speculative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 Please stand by for an ROC ruling on this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokey Bandit Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 In the ruling follow-up...if at the loading table, the rifle leaves the shooters hand (which it clearly will)...how is that different than the OP scenario/question mixed with all the other thoughts above? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 8 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said: The follow up to the rule is just that, laying the rifle down, leaving the shooters control, on half or full cock remains a SDQ. Laying a cocked, loaded rifle down has never been a SDQ unless the round is in the chamber Quote Discarding a long gun containing a live round in the chamber (once it leaves the shooter’s hands) I am still trying to figure out how to rationalize the SDQ. About the only thing I could figure was: Quote Not adhering to loading or unloading procedures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assassin Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 My recommendation would be the following. Once the shooter relinquishes possession of the rifle and the hammer is not fully down, they open the action and proceed to the unloading table, SDQ. They do not get the opportunity to remedy the situation by pointing the rifle to the back of the bay and pulling the trigger. No double jeopardy, just a SDQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 11 minutes ago, Assassin said: My recommendation would be the following. Once the shooter relinquishes possession of the rifle and the hammer is not fully down, they open the action and proceed to the unloading table, SDQ. They do not get the opportunity to remedy the situation by pointing the rifle to the back of the bay and pulling the trigger. No double jeopardy, just a SDQ. As Branchwater mentioned laying a cocked loaded gun down isn’t a SDQ unless there is a round in the chamber and we don’t assess multiple SDQs for the same action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assassin Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 46 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said: As Branchwater mentioned laying a cocked loaded gun down isn’t a SDQ unless there is a round in the chamber and we don’t assess multiple SDQs for the same action. My recommendation. Didn't want to get into a rule interpretation dispute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 2 hours ago, Smokey Bandit said: In the ruling follow-up...if at the loading table, the rifle leaves the shooters hand (which it clearly will)...how is that different than the OP scenario/question mixed with all the other thoughts above? There is no penalty for a cocked firearm leaving the shooter's hands at the loading table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 9 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: Please stand by for an ROC ruling on this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 Assassin, not sure where you've been but the rule change has been voted in and took effect 1/1/20. Shooter coming to the line with a rifle in that condition now must bring the rifle to full cock, if it isn't already, point it down range and pull the trigger. No bang no call. Bang SDQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 It seems to me this rule change is intended to reflect a belief that leaving the loading table with a cocked hammer (rifle) over an empty chamber should not carry a penalty. I would think that as long as the shooter can establish that the chamber is empty no penalty should apply. The question that leads to is what if the shooter starts the stage with a cocked hammer? Do they get a penalty? If so what? Can they cure it on the clock the same way they would if it was discovered before the beep? Lets say the shooter starts the course of fire P-R-S and while he is shooting the pistols an official, TO maybe, notices the rifle is cocked? What then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 5 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said: It seems to me this rule change is intended to reflect a belief that leaving the loading table with a cocked hammer (rifle) over an empty chamber should not carry a penalty. I would think that as long as the shooter can establish that the chamber is empty no penalty should apply. The question that leads to is what if the shooter starts the stage with a cocked hammer? Do they get a penalty? If so what? Can they cure it on the clock the same way they would if it was discovered before the beep? Lets say the shooter starts the course of fire P-R-S and while he is shooting the pistols an official, TO maybe, notices the rifle is cocked? What then? That is one of the scenarios presented to the ROC for a definitive call based on current rules/penalties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 Unintended consequences! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 There are no "unintended consequences" involved...just a matter of applying the current rules to a given scenario. 3 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: Please stand by for an ROC ruling on this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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