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Juiceharp Jen

CAS with BB guns

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The full wood stock version of the Fursan looks like it is almost perfect for CAS.  Reversed triggers?  Ejectors?

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7 hours ago, Warden Callaway said:

Where will this technology advance to?   Can they add a speaker to make a report of a shot?  Add a motion sensor to the target to report the clang?  Add black powder smoke, smell and sound? 

 

 

The report of the BBs/pallets against the steel is loud enough.

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7 hours ago, Juiceharp Jen said:

The full wood stock version of the Fursan looks like it is almost perfect for CAS.  Reversed triggers?  Ejectors?

From what I have seen in some videos the Farsan has no ejectors just a big extractor. But I have got first hand impressions from owners that the shells are not very reliable. They don't hold the gas pressure anymore after some use. And the shells are quite expensive.

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8 hours ago, Warden Callaway said:

Where will this technology advance to?   Can they add a speaker to make a report of a shot?  Add a motion sensor to the target to report the clang?  Add black powder smoke, smell and sound? 

 

 

 

To second Pete, the sound of the steel target is louder to the shooter than is reflected in the video.  What's more, the sound of the gas propellant is even louder to a shooter.  Without ear protection, the propellant noise and gong are not that far off from what a hearing protected shooter would experience using a real gun and CAS target.  I was surprised at how similar the experience is in comparison.  The main thing missing is recoil, and of course shotgun with knock down targets.

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On 2/20/2019 at 2:49 PM, Iron Hands Pete said:

From what I have seen in some videos the Farsan has no ejectors just a big extractor. But I have got first hand impressions from owners that the shells are not very reliable. They don't hold the gas pressure anymore after some use. And the shells are quite expensive.

 

Its not clear to me how the shells charge and if using a tank with a safe max fill would help avoid problems.  The shells look longer than the real thing, and I imagine that they are quite heavy even after firing, so loading them in the barrels and ejecting them onto the floor will be a different experience from the real thing.

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Has anyone tried these on the Air Soft version of the Texas Star?  Might be fun iffen the BB version wouldnt destroy the aluminum Star. 

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Is the interest in BB guns for CAS driven by restrictions on actual firearms or limitations of shooting in an indoor range?

 

I'd think a near ballistic equivalent would be to fire 22s with BB or CB caps.  The CCi CB short shots a 29 grain bullet at 710 fps.  The BB only 18 grains.

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My interest lies in the legal requirement at my location in rural north texas to have at least 10 acres to shoot firearms.  I have 1 acre, so I can practice CAS at home with BB guns, but I can’t shoot .22s.  And the Foot Pound Muzzle Energy (FPE) on these is about 1 FPE.  That’s a 7ish grain BB at about 400 FPS, If I recall correctly. The same as a Red Ryder.  And the cost per round is less than a penny.  I don’t reload, so the .22 would be more costly and the risk also much greater on a small lot like mine.

 

In Germany, I presume they cannot get firearms at all, so that has to be the driving factor there.

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18 minutes ago, Juiceharp Jen said:

My interest lies in the legal requirement at my location in rural north texas to have at least 10 acres to shoot firearms.  I have 1 acre, so I can practice CAS at home with BB guns, but I can’t shoot .22s. 

 

I'd think dry firing your competition guns and practicing transitions with same would prove much more beneficial. 

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Jen, I don't know the whole story; but they have CAS matches in Germany. 

 

Hey Pete, do you know Rephil, Shotgun Boogie and Olli? I met them at our Western Regional in CA. They are all contenders! I see Boogie from time to time as he is living in CA and is now engaged to Ruby Jewel!

 

BTW, the Germans know how to party!

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On 2/24/2019 at 6:02 PM, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Jen, I don't know the whole story; but they have CAS matches in Germany. 

 

Hey Pete, do you know Rephil, Shotgun Boogie and Olli? I met them at our Western Regional in CA. They are all contenders! I see Boogie from time to time as he is living in CA and is now engaged to Ruby Jewel!

 

BTW, the Germans know how to party!

Hi Allie, unfortunately I don't no anyone in the "real" CAS comunity in Germany. Me and the CO2-CAS guys are just a small bunch of western enthusiasts with no access to real guns and almost no ties to them.

 

Getting a permit to own real guns is quite hard in Germany.  And it's expensive. Not to mention that you have to find a place to legally shoot. Don't get me wrong there is an indoor range to shoot .22 in every other village but to shoot big bore is seems to be totally different affair.

 

As mentioned I'm not really into it but I contacted a CAS club member from Hamburg (the second bigest city in Germany and the nearest city to me) to ask him if it would be possible to visit a monthly match and try it myself. It turned out that they actually have to drive a 100 km down south to be able to shoot on a range they share with a club from that area...

 

So there are many things that drive us to try CAS with CO2 guns instead: 

 

- Easy access (You just have to be 18 years of age.)

- You can shoot in your back yard or basement (If you own the place or the landlord agrees, that is...)

- Really cheap ammo (750 lead BBs cost me about EUR 10,--. To use them all up I need appx. 8 CO2 catridges for 40 cent a piece.)

- The guns are comparativle cheap (Umarex Colt SAA: EUR 130,-- for the cheapest, Umarex Cowboy Rifle: around EUR 230,--)

- No ear protection needed.

- No heavy duty locker need for the guns. (In Germany real firearms need to be locked away in steel lockers certified exactly for the type of gun.)

  I only need to denie underaged people access to the CO2 guns.

 

There are drawbacks:

 

- No recoil

- No smoke

- Neighbors (I'm shooting on my parents farm in the countyside and ever so often I get hostile glances from over the fence as if I was a

   guncrasy maniac

   training to run amok. Probably a German problem....)

- The guns are not that sturdy. They are not made of steel but of a cast zinc aloy. If got my main revolver for one year now and it

   suffered from a broken hammerspring already.

- No shotgun (no suitable one, that is...)   

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Hi Pete,

 

Thank you for explaining the situation in Germany. It sounds worse than our most restrictive states.

 

I wish you the best.

 

Sincerely,

 

Allie

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Iron Hands Pete,

 

Does Germany treat Cap and Ball pistols differently than cartridge pistols?  I know in other countries owning C&B pistols is significantly easier than cartridge pistols.

With very little work clones of the Remington 1858 and Colt 1851, 1860/61 open tops can be made to run exceptionally well for CAS and a really good capper can be purchased from Polish Cappers.

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8 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Iron Hands Pete,

 

Does Germany treat Cap and Ball pistols differently than cartridge pistols?  I know in other countries owning C&B pistols is significantly easier than cartridge pistols.

With very little work clones of the Remington 1858 and Colt 1851, 1860/61 open tops can be made to run exceptionally well for CAS and a really good capper can be purchased from Polish Cappers.

Actually, I don't know.

 

I am not an expert in real guns. But I do know that everything above 7,5 jules (I don't know how much fps that is.) of pressure is strongly regulated.

 

I can imagine that C&B could actually be more difficult. If I'm not mistaken you need a special licence to handle loose powder in Germany. But don't quote me on that.

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7.5 joules is about 5.5 foot pounds (FPE).  The BB guns discussed here, like the Red Ryder, have about 1 FPE.  The conversion of muzzle energy to velocity depends on the weight of the projectile.  An Olympic air rifle or air pistol firing a 7 grain pellet at 580 FPS has about 5.5 FPE.  A 40 grain .22 round at 1250 FPS has about 140 FPE. 

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We did it again!

 

Last weekend we had our CAS with airguns 2019 down in Amberg, Bavaria in Germany.

 

Please watch the trailer for the upcoming full match video if you like. (Just ignore the German language.)

 

Your opinion means a lot to me.

 

 

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WOW.  Y'all sure know how to have fun.  Very nice range.

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Thanks.

 

I'ts not a real range. It is makeshift on the yard of a western club in Bavaria. Th club is named "Red River Trail Crew". They had the kindness to let us use there facilities and join in the fun.

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Well made video:excl:

One suggestion-Edit out the knucklehead at 0:24 seconds that twirls his loaded 'BB' revolver. :rolleyes:

That will get you a match disqualification in every shooting sport I know of.

Respectfully,

OLG

 

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12 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

One suggestion-Edit out the knucklehead at 0:24 seconds that twirls his loaded 'BB' revolver. :rolleyes:

That will get you a match disqualification in every shooting sport I know of.

 

 

You are right. We have quite a lot of work to do in the safety department.

We had a safety instruction before the match stating that no loaded guns are allowed if the wearer is not shooting.

 

That scene was taken in a break between stages. I can asure you that the gun was unloaded. The "knucklehead" is me....

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6 minutes ago, Iron Hands Pete said:

 

You are right. We have quite a lot of work to do in the safety department.

We had a safety instruction before the match stating that no loaded guns are allowed if the wearer is not shooting.

 

That scene was taken in a break between stages. I can asure you that the gun was unloaded. The "knucklehead" is me....

Thank you for your honesty. No beer for you today-----:lol:

FWIW: My last name is Swiss in origin. My Grandmother(Moms side)was from Brumholder, her last name was Haan.

When she came to the USA, she changed the spelling to Hahn, thinking she would have a better chance at finding work just after WW1. 

Best of luck to you and your club:excl:

OLG

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Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362

  Nice range , how do they keep those BB's from flying back at shooters and others I have shot steel with my old BB gun and have to keep dodging return rounds.  :FlagAm:

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Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362

  Nice range , how do they keep those BB's from flying back at shooters and others I have shot steel with my old BB gun and have to keep dodging return rounds.  :FlagAm:

 

 Now about gun laws in Germany.  Germany has one of the the highest gun ownership rates in Europe yes, you can own guns so what is this all about??

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Well,

Shooting targets with BB guns/ Airsoft has no place in CAS/SASS. I don't object to you doing so, just don't call it CAS/SASS. Sounds like an idea from the left wing of government to do away with firearms for shooting competition. Don't give them any ideas. Just my opinion.

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7 hours ago, Texas jack Black SASS#9362 said:

  Nice range , how do they keep those BB's from flying back at shooters and others I have shot steel with my old BB gun and have to keep dodging return rounds.  :FlagAm:

 

 Now about gun laws in Germany.  Germany has one of the the highest gun ownership rates in Europe yes, you can own guns so what is this all about??

 

As we are shooting either with lead BBs or pellets, we have no problems with rebounds. These projectiles deform on impact and fall down.

 

There are many reasons why our bunch has resorted to CO2 guns.

 

There are very comparatively few ranges suitable for real steel CAS in Germany.

 

A few months ago I attended a real CAS match as a visitor. I had to drive through have the German state of Lower Saxony to get to the range which was located on an abandoned military base.

 

The guys at the match told me that this particular range is the only one in this state. And Lower Saxony is the second biggest state of Germany area wise...

 

As for German gun laws: Watch the this explanation video if you are interested and you will see the problems we are struggling with. I cannot explain it better.

 

 

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Even here we have pards seeking unique ways to train at home or away from a legal range.  I know that there are serious # GUN shooters who have set up mini-ranges in their basement using air soft and we have had at least a few SASS shooters reporting on their practice methods when using laser guns or laser ammo in the house or garage for practice AND this does not include those others who are practicing with wax.  Never say never,  no matter that I see many battles won by our side in protecting the Second Amendment, I also see much evidence that points towards its abolition within possibly just one more generation!  

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On 5/27/2019 at 1:28 PM, Iron Hands Pete said:

 

As we are shooting either with lead BBs or pellets, we have no problems with rebounds. These projectiles deform on impact and fall down.

 

There are many reasons why our bunch has resorted to CO2 guns.

 

There are very comparatively few ranges suitable for real steel CAS in Germany.

 

A few months ago I attended a real CAS match as a visitor. I had to drive through have the German state of Lower Saxony to get to the range which was located on an abandoned military base.

 

The guys at the match told me that this particular range is the only one in this state. And Lower Saxony is the second biggest state of Germany area wise...

 

As for German gun laws: Watch the this explanation video if you are interested and you will see the problems we are struggling with. I cannot explain it better.

 

 

How does the German laws deal with guns as part of an inheritance to your son or daughter?

What happens to the guns, when the license holder dies? 

Thank you that video-You folks have some really 'tuff' and stupid laws to deal with.

OLG

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Here in Sacramento County, it is against the law to shoot BBs or pellet guns in the back yard.
Only compound hunting bows are legal for backyard practice.

Go figure.

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Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362

 All of Europe is GONE Nuff said .:FlagAm:

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33 minutes ago, Texas jack Black SASS#9362 said:

 All of Europe is GONE Nuff said .:FlagAm:

 

And sad to say, much of this country.  :(

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And here is the whole match.

 

I have spared you the briefing, the end results and credits as these are completely in German.

 

Please let me have your opinion.

 

 

 

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