Jim No Horse Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 Tejas Cabelleros are planning a fundraiser match with local LEOs and we would appreciate any advice you could give us. Our basic plan is to have mixed posses of cowboys and lawmen. Then take the top five? or four shooters best scores for the overall group winner. Advice and suggestions needed. Thanks Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 I have been helping to run one of these matches for several years now and ran one at my home club last fall. They can be a lot of fun, but there are certainly things that can help it be more successful. Some of the things we learned are. 1. Use cardboard for the rifle targets. The LEOs often get ammo from their station, and there is no guarantee that they will know it's composition, but it will almost certainly not be all lead. We have had injuries where a LEO was struck by the copper jacket bouncing back from another LEOs rifle rounds that required an ambulance ride. It sucks for the Cowboys to not hear the clang after the bang, but safety is more important. Steel works OK for the pistol rounds, but don't place them too close, again because their ammo may not be all lead. 2. Make sure the LEOs have a place to stage their pistol after they shoot it. Treat it like Wild Bunch in that respect. Few are used to doing any kind of speed holstering, or unholstering for that matter, and last thing you want is for them to drop a firearm. 3. Try to mix up the theme for the stages, half cowboy themed and half cop themed. Makes them feel included as a lot of them will be new to this and no one wants them to feel left out of the party. I can send you the stages we ran last time if you are interested, just send me a PM with your email address. They may or may not work for you, but it will give you a starting point. 4. Their AR's will be LOUD, especially in enclosed bays, so make sure everyone has good ear protection. 5. Around here in Maryland, there is a reluctance of many officers to participate in shooting events with the "civilians". No particular reason I can point to, but I suspect it is either they do not want to be shown up by a bunch of YaHoos, and most of us fit that bill, or that there is a concern for their personal safety. We always take the proceeds from the match and send it to a Charity for first responders, making it an enticement for them to participate. Once you get a few regulars, they will bring other with them. 6. Don't make the shooting sequences too complicated. Most will have no idea what a Nevada Sweep is, so be prepared to explain in detail. 7. Include a good lunch with the shoot, and charge appropriately, as again, many will be unprepared for the day, especially if it is their first one. 8. We only give out two awards, Top Cop and Top Cowboy, and those are the only two categories offered. It's just for fun, and charity, so enjoy, Good luck with your match, and don't forget the Donuts! Dogmeat Dad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggus Deal #64218 Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 We set up exact same size and shape paper targets for the LEO pistol and rifle just to the side of the cowboy steel. Takes a little time to tape theirs but it's worth it. Also, make sure they know to not bring slugs or buckshot for the shotguns! Ran into that on one match! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim No Horse Posted July 20, 2017 Author Share Posted July 20, 2017 Thanks Bogus and Dogmeat....these are exactly the kinds of information we need...thanks Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorelei Longshot, SASS #44256 Life Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 Possum Skinner put on one a few years ago in Louisiana. It was FUN! Contact him. I think he had frangible bullets made for the cops. The cops were very impressed by how fast the cowboy shooters could shoot the stages. Which club is sponsoring this shoot? Really want to make plans to shoot it if possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 You should test it to be 100% sure but Drywall works well as a target. The gypsum dust is an indicator of the round penetrating the target in addition to the hole. Odds are astronomical that two rounds would pass through the same hole and not at least make some dust fly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim No Horse Posted July 20, 2017 Author Share Posted July 20, 2017 Lorelei..would love to have you up here in Austin. We have a brand new shooting venue at The Texas Republic Ranch in Blanco. The Tejas Cabelleros. Check our website. No date set yet but we will let you know. I have been wanting to meet Possum Skinner. Thanks for the tip...Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim No Horse Posted July 21, 2017 Author Share Posted July 21, 2017 Lorelei...Do not worry about the heat...it will probably be held in October....so not too....hot....Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farr Ranger Posted August 1, 2017 Share Posted August 1, 2017 I wonder if the cops would do better with some wild bunch rules? We often shoot wild bunch and cowboy on the same range and with the same targets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted August 1, 2017 Share Posted August 1, 2017 2 minutes ago, Farr Ranger said: I wonder if the cops would do better with some wild bunch rules? We often shoot wild bunch and cowboy on the same range and with the same targets? Don't do nut'n that is different from how they are trained. Example-5 shots from a 7 shot pistol magazine, and load from slide lock is stupid. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Hanger #3720LR Posted August 1, 2017 Share Posted August 1, 2017 Hint... Place rifle targets 3' to 4' a part. Even if the cops use semi or fully automatic rifles, the swing from target to target will give the cowboys the advantage. That was whispered so they don't hear it. Same with pistol targets. The swing gives the cowboys plenty of time to lever and or cock their guns for the next shot. Dump plates, we loose (some times) unless they can't stay on target during the dump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted August 1, 2017 Share Posted August 1, 2017 We did it one year and had a so, so turnout from the cops. The next year it was an only cowboy match. They didn't like getting whipped by some antique guns. They had other things to do, they have other fund raisers. We did use cardboard. We did set the stages up with mixed Posses' They were provided free ammo from their department. Jacketed. They are not accustomed to speed loading magazines or gun transfers. In other words a few shot competitively but most were regular duty cops who don't spend much time at the range. Ike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackey Cole Posted August 2, 2017 Share Posted August 2, 2017 I've seen the cowboys shoot steel like normal and the Leo's shoot paper which is the norm for them. Setup range like normal, then put paper targets same size, shape and color for the Leo's in the same patterns and distances the Leo's shoot paper the cbs shoot steel same procedures just two sets of targets for rifle and pistol shotgun can be same as long as they use birdshot no buck or slugs. Also have gear for Leo's to shoot CBD guns and gear for cb to shoot modern as a side event have the Leo's contribute a full match worth of stages same with your FB stage writer then a board of 50/50 Leo's/cbs desire on which stages to use then add the steel/ paper targets depending try to go 50/50 on designers so no one has an advantage. Those are are my only additions I have but it will need to be something done annually if you want it to catch on the first couple of years they will be reluctant but after a few years of them being treated fairly and having input and the word gets out the more Leo's that will partake. Also allow the military in that area to shoot as leos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Most Wanted Posted August 2, 2017 Share Posted August 2, 2017 Dog meat and OLG hit on some good points . I've shot at a few of these and ran one . The one I ran I stepped in for someone and was unfortunately strapped with some restrictions I was not in favor of . Lets start out by remembering this is not a SASS cowboy shoot . Its a fund raiser and a really good opportunity to meet new people , have fun and introduced some people to cowboy shooting . If you invite someone to your party is it your goal to see that they have fun and return ? Well of course it is . So lets put our egos aside and try to make this as fair of a competition as possible . It should not be about "lets show them cops what we can do ". First as OLG said Do Not have them do something that contradicts their training . LEO pistols and rifles should be loaded with ten rounds , chambered and on safe . Shotguns should be loaded with necessary rounds for available targets , chambered and on safe . Really sucks watching LEOs forget to rack pistols and fight reloads . As Dog meat said keep stages simple . Shooting order should start with a couple cowboys then try to keep a cowboy in between the LEOs to give help as needed . They are coming onto our court and playing a game for the first time . Some will struggle but its up to us to show them a good time and bring them back for more . Take care . MW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 On 8/1/2017 at 4:21 PM, Cliff Hanger #3720LR said: Hint... Place rifle targets 3' to 4' a part. Even if the cops use semi or fully automatic rifles, the swing from target to target will give the cowboys the advantage. That was whispered so they don't hear it. Same with pistol targets. The swing gives the cowboys plenty of time to lever and or cock their guns for the next shot. Dump plates, we loose (some times) unless they can't stay on target during the dump. Use different height targets also- 10 minutes ago, Most Wanted said: Dog meat and OLG hit on some good points . I've shot at a few of these and ran one . The one I ran I stepped in for someone and was unfortunately strapped with some restrictions I was not in favor of . Lets start out by remembering this is not a SASS cowboy shoot . Its a fund raiser and a really good opportunity to meet new people , have fun and introduced some people to cowboy shooting . If you invite someone to your party is it your goal to see that they have fun and return ? Well of course it is . So lets put our egos aside and try to make this as fair of a competition as possible . It should not be about "lets show them cops what we can do ". First as OLG said Do Not have them do something that contradicts their training . LEO pistols and rifles should be loaded with ten rounds , chambered and on safe . Shotguns should be loaded with necessary rounds for available targets , chambered and on safe . Really sucks watching LEOs forget to rack pistols and fight reloads . As Dog meat said keep stages simple . Shooting order should start with a couple cowboys then try to keep a cowboy in between the LEOs to give help as needed . They are coming onto our court and playing a game for the first time . Some will struggle but its up to us to show them a good time and bring them back for more . Take care . MW Why just ten rnds? Let them shoot, as the fight. No reason an LEO shooter can't re-holster a 'hot' handgun. They are trained to do this. Let them bench the rifle and return to clear it under the T/O supervision when stage is finished. This way when the cowboys beat'em-They will know they were beat hard. Just make it clear, the LEO's have to use their duty gear and no shoulder holsters. All rifle fire is to be semi-auto, no burst fire. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackey Cole Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 I would let everyone know that the Leo's are competing amongst themselves using their procedures and cowboys using sasss rules the only thing is the posses are equally split with Leo's and cowboys if possible i.e. You have 30 cowboys and 10 Leo's then thee posses are 5 and 15 intermingle shooters i.e. A couple so cas shooters then a Leo then a couple of cas and so forth so you make everyone rub elbows and get acquainted. Same for lunch don't allowbunch of either group let everyone know that this is the sop for the day and not picking on. Any group. But to allow each group to learn about the other. And after the even they will be two stages setup with cas gear on one and Leo gear. On the other what cowboy can't come up with a m4, m9 or equivalent and a 870 shotgun for cowboys to shoot, the saas, 73 and sxss will be realll simple maybe a local business withdonate the ammo for each or spread it out. Remember this is a charity event so hit the local businesses up too let them donate to the charity or sponsor ammo,range frees, food etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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