Cutting a 97 stock

[Volga Vigilante]

My boys and I are getting started in SASS and I have a 97 stock question. My oldest will be shooting the shotgun and it is a bit long. South Paw Slim is 11 years old, 100 lb, and 5' tall. Is there a rule of thumb for stock length? More so for a Buckaroo?

Many Thanks,

Volga Vigilante

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Just don't break any Federal laws concerning OAL of the SG.

 

I'm of average size and I have cut some of the length from my 97's.

 

I load with the right hand and I've made my cut so that when my right hand reached for the port to drop a shell in, my shoulder movement is minimal and doesn't move the SG away from me.

 

p.s. if you get it cut, think about getting enough cut to where you can also add a nice rubber butt pad. I had mine cut about 2" BUT, I added back a nice 1" rubber butt pad..... the Kik Ezee brand (kick Ez, etc...)

 

..........Widder

[Awful Close]

The method that has worked with me for all the stocks I've had cut and cut myself (including my hunting shotguns) was to hold the gun against my shoulder and measure where the first joint of my trigger finger was against the stock. Using blue removable painters tape, mark the spot with a felt tip pen. Then measure the difference from that mark to the front face of the trigger. That difference is the amount necessary to remove from the stock. If you are going to add a thick butt pad, cut an additional amount equal to the buttpad's thickness.

 

I once read that if the gun was a pump action, an additional one inch should be removed. I tried that and it did not work for me.

 

Since so many of the original 97 stocks are cracked near the front of the stock, you might find one at a good price that you can glue back together and use til your son stops growing.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Since we are loading on the clock, many of us use a shorter stock than we would for hunting, etc. A 12 1/2 to 13 inch length of pull is pretty common. That may work for him as well. As he grows, you can always add a thicker pad or spacer.

 

You can also make one cut and save the piece you cut. You will need to add a small spacer if you ever want to use it, but it would help.

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

For youths and the ladies the first thing to look at doing is stock work to fit the shooter. The crook of the elbow to the trigger method is a good method for skeet and other games where the gun is already mounted and you don't have to work the action. Doesn't work well for what we do. What I've found for both but particularly for the ladies is the stock should be just long enough to allow the thumb of the trigger hand to be no closer than an 1" but not more than 2" from the shooters nose. Generally, if the stock is longer the crook of the elbow will be extended beyond 90% and because the ladies and youths generally don't have the upper body strength that men do and the ladies also have those protrusion there on their chest that can get in the way, so the gun will be too front heavy. When you see that new shooter leaning way back struggling to hold the gun up that is usually the reason why, the stock is just too long.
Also the stocks on most of the CAS SXS guns are designed for aerial targets. When you point them toward the ground the positive toe of those stocks tends to dig into your shoulder when you fire. This will eventually cause the shooter to let the stock move down on shoulder which brings the front end up. Shot goes high. Savvy shooters will lean way into the shot but that usually doesn't’t work for the lady shooters. So, now that positive toe is nailing them. For the shotguns besides shortening the stock I like cut them so the pad is about 5 degrees negative. That helps take some of the felt recoil away shooting at our ground targets.

Here’s a good example. This young lady was 11 years old when this picture was taken. This first pic is her with one of the youth size Henry 22’s and as you can see she is struggling to hold it up. Notice her elbow is more than 90 degrees.

 

 

Here she is with a 12ga Baikal SXS that is cut to about 10”LOP with a mercury recoil reducer and good pad at about 5 degrees. Her stance isn’t that great but she is definitely in more control of the gun. Elbow is less than 90 degrees.

 

[Outlaw Gambler]

Volga, don't cut your stock!! Send me a email to outlawgambler@gmail.com and I will hook you up with one already cut.

[Lankyframe #44046]

My girlfriend is 5'2" and I cut her 97 stock down using the 1-2" from thumb to nose method and it fits her very well now.

LF

[Houston CAS]

For youths and the ladies the first thing to look at doing is stock work to fit the shooter. The crook of the elbow to the trigger method is a good method for skeet and other games where the gun is already mounted and you don't have to work the action. Doesn't work well for what we do. What I've found for both but particularly for the ladies is the stock should be just long enough to allow the thumb of the trigger hand to be no closer than an 1" but not more than 2" from the shooters nose. Generally, if the stock is longer the crook of the elbow will be extended beyond 90% and because the ladies and youths generally don't have the upper body strength that men do and the ladies also have those protrusion there on their chest that can get in the way, so the gun will be too front heavy. When you see that new shooter leaning way back struggling to hold the gun up that is usually the reason why, the stock is just too long.

Also the stocks on most of the CAS SXS guns are designed for aerial targets. When you point them toward the ground the positive toe of those stocks tends to dig into your shoulder when you fire. This will eventually cause the shooter to let the stock move down on shoulder which brings the front end up. Shot goes high. Savvy shooters will lean way into the shot but that usually doesn't’t work for the lady shooters. So, now that positive toe is nailing them. For the shotguns besides shortening the stock I like cut them so the pad is about 5 degrees negative. That helps take some of the felt recoil away shooting at our ground targets.

 

Nate, some really good information here. I have a Stoeger Coach Supreme that my wife uses for CAS, and I want to shorten up the stock for her since I finally have a permanent shotgun for me.

 

It's not the best angle, but here she is using her shotgun at a recent shoot. From what you are describing, it seems like I would have to severely shorten the stock to put her thumb closer to her nose. Is that right, or is there a better way for her to hold the shotgun?

 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

 

Nate, some really good information here. I have a Stoeger Coach Supreme that my wife uses for CAS, and I want to shorten up the stock for her since I finally have a permanent shotgun for me.

 

It's not the best angle, but here she is using her shotgun at a recent shoot. From what you are describing, it seems like I would have to severely shorten the stock to put her thumb closer to her nose. Is that right, or is there a better way for her to hold the shotgun?

 

It is not always "just" stock length.

Stance and lean will alter the distance from nose to thumb as well.

 

In the picture, your wife is standing pretty much straight upright.

This stance will always increase the distance between thumb and nose.

And the common thing is to cut too much off the stock to "fix" this distance. (ask me how I know this)

 

Cut the stock off incrementally - while encouraging your wife to lean into the shotgun (rifle as well).

She will find her sweet spot at some point where the lean and the length get the gun exactly where it needs to be.

 

The combination of length and lean will assist her aiming, her speed and her recoil recovery.

Making the shotgun a much more pleasant firearm to handle.

[Houston CAS]

Yeah she almost leans backwards sometimes because the stock is too long for her. I had her holding the shotgun yesterday and then took off the recoil pad, which is about 1.25" thick, to see what she thought of it then. It was a bit better for her. I think I'm going to go in small increments like you said. Probably 1.5" to start and see how she fares that way.

[Sedalia Dave]

Volga, don't cut your stock!! Send me a email to outlawgambler@gmail.com and I will hook you up with one already cut.

Take OG up on his offer.

 

Here is a video showing how to measure LOP using the thumb to nose method. Most important is that if you cut 1/4 inch off the stock it will change the thumb to nose measurement by 1 inch.

 

If you cut a stock save the cut section. As your shooter grows you can add it back on and increase the LOP. Make fine adjustments with different thicknesses of a grind to fit recoil pad combined with a lace on butt stock cover.

 

The greates benefit with the corect LOP is that it will significantly reduce the felt recoil.

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

Yeah she almost leans backwards sometimes because the stock is too long for her. I had her holding the shotgun yesterday and then took off the recoil pad, which is about 1.25" thick, to see what she thought of it then. It was a bit better for her. I think I'm going to go in small increments like you said. Probably 1.5" to start and see how she fares that way.

 

 

Take OG up on his offer.

 

Here is a video showing how to measure LOP using the thumb to nose method. Most important is that if you cut 1/4 inch off the stock it will change the thumb to nose measurement by 1 inch.

 

If you cut a stock save the cut section. As your shooter grows you can add it back on and increase the LOP. Make fine adjustments with different thicknesses of a grind to fit recoil pad combined with a lace on butt stock cover.

 

The greates benefit with the corect LOP is that it will significantly reduce the felt recoil.

 

 

You know, I've done several of these over the years and for the life of me I don't see how cutting a 1/4 " off can move the thumb back a whole 1". That just doesn't make sense to me. I have the shooter mount the gun leaning in slightly. Then I just measure the distance from the thumb to the nose. Anything more than the 1" to 3" is what is cut off.

[Guest Maker-Wright]

 

 

 

 

You know, I've done several of these over the years and for the life of me I don't see how cutting a 1/4 " off can move the thumb back a whole 1". That just doesn't make sense to me. I have the shooter mount the gun leaning in slightly. Then I just measure the distance from the thumb to the nose. Anything more than the 1" to 3" is what is cut off.

 

Yeah, so if the nose is 8" away from the knuckle, cutting 2" off the stock is going to correct it?

 

I'm perplexed by that math too. All I can figure is maybe so many folks have initially lopped way too much off, and the intention of that "formula" is to scare them into just cutting a 1/4" at a time to save them the heartache of going too short.

 

Maker

[Sedalia Dave]

I don't know as I have never done what was stated in the video. I have only actually fit one stock to a person (My wife) and it was to replace one that was way too short and very beat up. I added material to the short one until her thumb was about 1.5 in from her nose. Then used that as the template to cut the replacement.

 

Only way I can see it working is that as you cut the stock your cheek will move forward and in because the the comb of the stock becomes narrower and in some cases lower. So the math may work because your actually moving your nose in more than one axis in relationship to your thumb.

 

I am no math wizard ( I go and ask the resident math genius at work whenever I feel I am in over my head ) but rather than be wrong I wanted to point it out just in case.

 

BTW I have tried to cut things longer in the past it so far I haven't figured out the secret.

[Guest Maker-Wright]

I don't know as I have never done what was stated in the video. I have only actually fit one stock to a person (My wife) and it was to replace one that was way too short and very beat up. I added material to the short one until her thumb was about 1.5 in from her nose. Then used that as the template to cut the replacement.

 

Only way I can see it working is that as you cut the stock your cheek will move forward and in because the the comb of the stock becomes narrower and in some cases lower. So the math may work because your actually moving your nose in more than one axis in relationship to your thumb.

 

I am no math wizard ( I go and ask the resident math genius at work whenever I feel I am in over my head ) but rather than be wrong I wanted to point it out just in case.

 

BTW I have tried to cut things longer in the past it so far I haven't figured out the secret.

 

Even though I don't understand the "formula", I certainly don't believe it does a disservice. Seems some of the finest work is often accomplished by moving toward the mark slowly, in small increments.

 

Maker

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

Yeah she almost leans backwards sometimes because the stock is too long for her. I had her holding the shotgun yesterday and then took off the recoil pad, which is about 1.25" thick, to see what she thought of it then. It was a bit better for her. I think I'm going to go in small increments like you said. Probably 1.5" to start and see how she fares that way.

 

 

Houston's is good example. If the pad is 1.24" thick and you remove it the thumb should now be 5" closer. Looking at the picture of his wife holding that gun, even with the pad still on it you can see that 5" closer would be much better. But, from what he is saying, it's still too long.

[Houston CAS]

It definitely wasn't 5" closer without the pad, but it was better than 1:1 ratio. I plan on shortening it before next month's THSS shoot. I'll make sure to take plenty of before and after photos and post the results when I finally do it.

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

It definitely wasn't 5" closer without the pad, but it was better than 1:1 ratio. I plan on shortening it before next month's THSS shoot. I'll make sure to take plenty of before and after photos and post the results when I finally do it.

 

 

You will want to change the angle so when shooting at our ground targets it doesn't dig into the should so much. This is the main reason the ladies tend to shoot high, over the targets. They tend to drop the butt down so it doesn't hurt, but now they are shooting too high.

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

 

Most important is that if you cut 1/4 inch off the stock it will change the thumb to nose measurement by 1 inch.

 

 

OK, I think I have it figured out. I'm betting they were talking about how the width of the butt pad narrows. As in when you cut off and inch of stock the butt plate/pad shrinks by 1/4". That's about the only thing that makes sense to me.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

H cas -

 

Also take a look at your pic and check where her cheek weld is - it's way back on the stock and almost floating. A shorter and negatively-angled butt stock will let her

* lean into the shot (absorbing more recoil)

* balance the weight better between her hands (leading to less effort and better aiming)

* get a good cheek weld (much better aiming)\

* not have to point the gun down intentionally to get to a ground target instantly (the negative angle points the muzzle down automatically)

* the recoil will not hurt so much because the negative angle spreads the impact out over all her chest instead of just on the toe of the shotgun (hint - compare woman's anatomy to that of a man)

 

Good luck, GJ

[Guest Maker-Wright]

 

 

OK, I think I have it figured out. I'm betting they were talking about how the width of the butt pad narrows. As in when you cut off and inch of stock the butt plate/pad shrinks by 1/4". That's about the only thing that makes sense to me.

 

This is what makes sense to me;

 

Most important is that if you cut 1/4 inch off the stock it will change the thumb to nose measurement by 1quarter inch.

Maker

[Buckshot Frank]

 

 

OK, I think I have it figured out. I'm betting they were talking about how the width of the butt pad narrows. As in when you cut off and inch of stock the butt plate/pad shrinks by 1/4". That's about the only thing that makes sense to me.

That makes sense if the point of contact with the shoulder is the toe of the stock (which it is when you are aiming at a ground target). The more you cut, the higher up that point will be on your shoulder due to the bottom angle of the stock (i.e. you are shortening the top-to-bottom length of the butt pad) .

 

Cutting a reverse angle somewhat alleviates this, as it gets the point of impact with the shoulder more centered on the pad.

 

I find that LOP has more to do with how someone sets up to a gun than their physical measurements. I stand pretty square to the target with pistols and long guns, so I like a short LOP even though I am 6'1" with long arms. Someone who stands bladed to the target will require a much longer LOP.