Need Clarification

[MBFields]

Today on a stage shooter was shooting pistols. Fired four then nothing, clicked around the cyl and no fire on fifth round. TO had them re holster and move on. When finished talked with To and explained the way I understand is the pistol should have been grounded or handed off. He replied he counted rounds and was on a spent round or empty chamber so could reholster. I did not agree because if a round still has not fired be it a light hit or ? it is still a live round. He did not agree and I then said fine but for safety should be grounded. Would like to know if I am interpreting wrong for the future so can correct myself. I apologized to TO for maybe being a little to forceful with my point and let it be. In no way am I trying to be disrespectful to the TO. Anyone?

[Rye Miles #13621]

They should have been grounded or handed off.

[StirrupTrouble]

For safety reasons, I agree. Hand off or ground, and declare the malfunction

[Goody, SASS #26190]

It's the shooters choice as to whether they hand it off, ground it or holster. The safest is to ground it if there is a safe place to do so. Handing it off is really not a good choice, IMHO. If the shooter chooses to holster they own the penalty if it is on a live round, regardless of whether the TO instructed them to do so or not. The pistol should be cleared under direct supervision of the unloading table officer , being sure they are aware of what transpired on the stage.

[Gawd Awful]

According to THE RULES it was the shooters choice to holster. The first 2 responses to your question are OPINIONS of the people who replied. In my OPINION grounding would have been the best option.

 

1) your opinion is not grounds to argue with an RO/TO who was following the rules

 

2) if your not the RO, Shooter, spotter, or a posse marshal, you have no buisness arguing a call, or second guessing a TO/RO.

 

If you aren't sure, look up the rule. If you feel the club allows unsafe actions vote with your feet. I had to vote with mine today.

[Grizzly Dave]

Most times when that happens the shooter goes round at least once, sometimes more, unless someone was counting from the last round that actually fired, and why would they be, how can you know for sure and for certain that the hammer eventually comes to rest on a spent round (no lead) or empty cylinder?

 

In my opinion (there ya go Gawd Awful) you can't.

 

No matter if someone is TO or Spotter or PM, we are all safety officers.

 

As far as questioning a call, if you can't question a call, how are ya ever gonna learn anything? Or how are TOs who might be forgetful of the rules going to learn anything?

 

From a shooters standpoint it's far better to declare a malfunction and hand it off or ground it. No penalty no matter what's under the hammer. For the shooter that holsters, there's far more 'book keeping' that needs to be done that most often isn't in my experience, as stated so that if a round with lead still in it comes out at the position that was under hammer at the time it was holstered the correct penalty can be awarded.

 

If I'm running the timer I'll advise to ground it in order to save the shooter from a possible penalty. If you don't want me running the timer for you on account of that, it's your privilege to ask for someone else to time you.

[Gawd Awful]

Grizz I agree with most of what you said, except 1 major point. Perhaps it's a word thing but you state that "in your opinion you can't". However an opinion defines "should or shouldn't". Rules determine "can or can't"

 

I do agree we are all safety officers, and can/will forget things. Maybe it's how I read The opening, and maybe it's because I misunderstood, but the way it's worded, it sounds like the OP was arguing about what was done. And here is the rub of the situation I agree that the best way to handle it would be to ground the gun, however there is no requirement to do so. All the above also assumes things we don't know. Was there somewhere to ground it??? Was the TO in a position to take the pistol without costing the shooter extra time to hand it off?? Was the TO willing to take possession of the gun???? there are some people who TO I wouldn't hand a firearm to for ANY REASON because I have witnessed them take possession of a broken gun, and the point it at the shooter because they were focused on what the shooter was doing and not the loaded gun in their own hand.

 

As far as you being a TO, I hope at some point we do shoot together, and when we do I will be more than happy to let you time for me. And if I have a malfunction I will listen to your recommendation, make my own choice, and accept the consequences (if any) for my choice. But it is gonna be a rare circumstance if I take the time to hand off a firearm I know to be safe instead of holster it.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Not going to second guess the T/O after hearing only one side of the story...but:

 

1) "Handing off" should be a LAST resort for a number of reasons. Always best to GROUND a malfunctioning firearm whenever possible.

2) IF the T/O had miscounted and the shooter holstered with the hammer down on the unfired round, the penalty would be a SDQ.

3) The revolver should be checked and cleared on the line by the T/O before shooter goes to the ULT.

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

If the TO is handed a gun with a live round in it and he drops it, who gets the match DQ? (Rhetorical question)

 

Fillmore

[Gawd Awful]

If the TO is handed a gun with a live round in it and he drops it, who gets the match DQ? (Rhetorical question)

 

Fillmore

If the TO drops it and the gun goes off, who is responsible for the round????

 

Not a rhetorical question

[Blackey Cole]

Two things the shooter should have declared a malfunctioning gun to advoid additional pentalies. When he does this the gun is grounded or handed off. If not he is liable for pentaly for holster a revolver with a live round, and possibly a gun unsafe to leave a shooters hand. If handed off then it needs to be checked for live round under the hammer at the unloading table first thing by the person handling the firearm and the ult officer. If the gun is in a condition that warrants a sdq or Mdq the to needs to notified asap and a cease fire called. If a mistake is made a reshoot is offered if the shooter did not get the sdq or higher pentaly. If he holsters the gun the shooter needs to be stopped asap for a gun leaving a shooters hand in an unsafe manner ie live round still in revolver. Again if a mistake is made the reshoot is offered. In both cases the shooter receives a miss for the unfired round at a minimum.

 

After this shooter is through with the stage at this time the pm or md should replace the to and educate them on what to do when this happens. If the shooter was a C&B shooter and the cap fell off the nipple on the fifth chamber and the shooter declares such and decides not to recap and take the miss then there is no live round in the gun and he should discharge the chamber after his final shot off the clock unless there are more stages to be shot that day.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Blackey...please refer to post #8 & quit making up non-existent rules:

If he holsters the gun the shooter needs to be stopped asap for a gun leaving a shooters hand in an unsafe manner ie live round still in revolver

 

There is NO PENALTY (other than the 5-seconds) for a revolver leaving the shooter's hand(s) with an unfired round remaining...as long as the hammer is down on either a fired case or the empty chamber.

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

If the TO drops it and the gun goes off, who is responsible for the round????

 

Not a rhetorical question

The TO.

 

Fillmore

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

Blackey...please refer to post #8 & quit making up non-existent rules:

 

There is NO PENALTY (other than the 5-seconds) for a revolver leaving the shooter's hand(s) with an unfired round remaining...as long as the hammer is down on either a fired case or the empty chamber.

+1

 

Fillmore

[MBFields]

Gawd Awful, your post is almost hostile. My point is not to discredit but to know what is best. The only thing I agree with you on is grounding was best choice as table top was right there. It is not my opinion but what was taught and told in RO training. The to told shooter to holster pistol, I was standing right there and heard him, shooter is fairly new and needs to also be told or taught or shown correct also. I did look up rule. Voting with our feet does not change one situation. Need to be safe at all times whether shooting or spotting or? I received my clarification from other posts than yours. Thank you to all.

[Blackey Cole]

Blackey...please refer to post #8 & quit making up non-existent rules:

 

 

There is NO PENALTY (other than the 5-seconds) for a revolver leaving the shooter's hand(s) with an unfired round remaining...as long as the hammer is down on either a fired case or the empty chamber.

pwb what rule did I make up? If he holster a revolver with a unfired round is it a unsafe condition for the gun to leave the shooters hand? Especially if it's under the firing pin.

 

If a shooter receives a sdq or Mdq arnt you suppose to stop the asap? If by some chance the shooter is stopped and they were stopped in error because the condition was misunderstood by the one that saw the condition the the shooter should be given a reshoot correct?

 

Please respond in private or here if you want all to see the error in my thinking . In the future I'll add ref to my statement so that my statement should be true . I should have checked to verify the rules where a revolver with a loaded round is unsafe to leave the shooters hand and was holstered.

[Gawd Awful]

Gawd Awful, your post is almost hostile. My point is not to discredit but to know what is best. The only thing I agree with you on is grounding was best choice as table top was right there. It is not my opinion but what was taught and told in RO training. The to told shooter to holster pistol, I was standing right there and heard him, shooter is fairly new and needs to also be told or taught or shown correct also. I did look up rule. Voting with our feet does not change one situation. Need to be safe at all times whether shooting or spotting or? I received my clarification from other posts than yours. Thank you to all.

I'm sorry you find it "almost hostile". I hope your "other posts than mine" include Palewolfs as he is a member of the ROC, and quoted the actual rule instead of an opinion.

 

. I just took an RO 1 refresher on Jan 18, and nowhere in that class did they mention the "rule" you refer to.

 

I ask you to please refer to the "rule" that says a shooter can't reholster a handgun with an unfired round in it. What book (shooters handbook, RO1, RO2) what page and line? This question is not rhetorical, if I missed something in the rule book I want to learn and correct my ways so that I can be a better TO, and also a better posse marshal, range master, and match director.

 

Judging by Palewolfs response my guess is that the instructor who taught the class might have interjected "personal belief" into the class instead of instead of sticking to the rules, but I could be mistaken. If my guess is correct than the misunderstanding would be easy to understand

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

PWB what rule did I make up? If he holster a revolver with a unfired round is it a unsafe condition for the gun to leave the shooters hand?

NO...that's the "non-rule" that I quoted from your post; along with a correction (same one that you re-quoted in your response)

Please REF: RO1 p.15 #11

 

Especially if it's under the firing pin.

 

If a shooter receives a sdq or Mdq arnt you suppose to stop the asap? If by some chance the shooter is stopped and they were stopped in error because the condition was misunderstood by the one that saw the condition the the shooter should be given a reshoot correct?

 

Please respond in private or here if you want all to see the error in my thinking .

In the future I'll add ref to my statement so that my statement should be true . I should have checked to verify the rules where a revolver with a loaded round is unsafe to leave the shooters hand and was holstered.

Good idea.

 

[MBFields]

Never said they cannot reholster. Up to shooter if they want to own penalty. I am looking for what is the best response in this situation. My deal is if I am a TO and tell shooter to reholster and I am wrong on counting, unsafe gun and sdq. The training was what rule book said but discussion on situations similar came up talking about best way to handle situation. My fault for not being clear on that point. I read pwb's post. He is right as that is what book says. Evidently it is interpretation. Gawd Awful if you wish to discuss this further I will through pm or ftf at a match I am sure will see you at some point.

[Most Wanted]

Ok not trying to stir the pot but just want to understand. A while back the issue was brought up about a pistol that has a squib but also has the hammer cocked over a live round. It was determined that as long as a "malfunction" was declared the shooter would be relieved of pistol leaving the hand while cocked penelty. The only penalty that would be applied was 5 seconds for each unfired round. So a serious question. If there is no where to ground the gun except for the ground and the shooter chooses to holster why does that possible penelty still apply where the other doesn't. Thanks

Oh and before a bunch point out there is the ground, this shooter agrees that bending down to the ground isnt safe. And I also realize he is choosing to holster the gun just like the other shooter chose to cock his gun over a squib then set it down. In the rule books it's says no other penalties will be applied other than unfired rounds. So how do we pick and choose. Thanks again and if this is one of those " this is how it's always been done " deals then OK. Thanks again

[MBFields]

I agree.I am also trying to understand and find out what is best or safest. Not be right or wrong, That was my purpose in this.

[Most Wanted]

Best or safest are opinions and your answer is as good as any. I just want to make the right call. I have always told the shooter to declare malfunction and ground it. But this thread got me thinking. Dangerous

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

The procedures for handling a squib during the course of fire is in the RO2 p.8.

Holstering is NOT a listed option for a revolver.

Those same procedures may be applied to any malfunctioning firearm.

[Griff]

Ok not trying to stir the pot but just want to understand. A while back the issue was brought up about a pistol that has a squib but also has the hammer cocked over a live round. It was determined that as long as a "malfunction" was declared the shooter would be relieved of pistol leaving the hand while cocked penelty. The only penalty that would be applied was 5 seconds for each unfired round. So a serious question. If there is no where to ground the gun except for the ground and the shooter chooses to holster why does that possible penelty still apply where the other doesn't. Thanks

Oh and before a bunch point out there is the ground, this shooter agrees that bending down to the ground isnt safe. And I also realize he is choosing to holster the gun just like the other shooter chose to cock his gun over a squib then set it down. In the rule books it's says no other penalties will be applied other than unfired rounds. So how do we pick and choose. Thanks again and if this is one of those " this is how it's always been done " deals then OK. Thanks again

When I've been the TO and someone cocked their revolver before I could stop 'em... after a squib... I've generally had them hand-off the revolver, I'll grab it around the frame, putting my thumb between the hammer and the frame... If the hammer falls on my thumb... it hurts a LOT less than any negligent discharge. It is MY opinion, that a firearm in condition one is best under someone's direct control than laying loose, in an uncontrolled condition on a table top. Again, that's just my opinion and how I'll handle THAT particular situation. YMMV. Have yet to have or witness an unsafe act when handled in this manner... Same applies to rifles. IMO, cocked firearms with a live round under the hammer should not just be left laying around loose. Once again, MY Opinion...

 

Further, holstering is not an option... as again, IMO, it is far less safe than having said revolver "in hand" with a thumb between hammer and frame. ESPECIALLY as we (as a group, and by rule, or lack thereof), don't train for trigger finger control, and it's potential for a subsequent negligent discharge as the gun is later unholstered to clear it. In your scenario, HAND it off!

[August West, SASS #45079]

I always thought hang-fires were a myth, until I saw one with my own eyes and ears.