Mean Matt McCord, SASS #24683 Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Pards, I need your opinions. I'm sure the conventional wisdom is Federal primers are the softest and CCI primers are the hardest. How do the other brands rate in terms of relative hardness? I am especially curious about Sellier & Bellot primers. I'm just asking for opinions based on your experiences. Thank you and have a good week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrel Cody Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 I have been shooting Selliier & Bellot for the last few months, because that's all i could find for a while. I haven't had any fail to fire out of about 3500 rounds. I have lightened springs in my Vaqueros and my 1866; maybe not the lightest but not stock. The only trouble I have had is they are hard to seat particularly with new brass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 It has nothing to do with HARDNESS.... They all start with the same thickness sheet of brass for the primer they are making. (pistol or rifle) The variable is the priming compound. Some chemical mixtures are more sensitive than others. The formula is closely guarded by each manufacturer. Some even add inert compounds, such as glass, to their primer compounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Since Fed and CCI are owned by the same company now. The difference is not as extreme as it once was. That said-Never had an S&B primer not go off. Good ammo/components and they are a NATO supplier, so their QC is in top form. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Skinner Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Only caution I would make with using European primers is that they say they are .001 bigger than American and could stretch your primer pockets making it hard to go back to American. Don't know this from personal experience. Just saw this posted on here a while back. Maybe those with personal experience can comment on this unverified info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bramble Mountain Buzzard Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 The last time this was brought up, there was the whole Federal this and Winchester that. CCI this and whatever that. Anyhow... the last time I saw anyone do a test was 4 or 5 or years ago. Everyone then parrots what everyone else said. Problem is that the manufacturers are CONSTANTLY reworking their formula or processes. For instance, as has been stated, CCI is now owned by Federal. I doubt that their formulas and processes are that much different anymore. Anyhow, the point that I'm trying to make is that you are going to get a lot of opinions and not fact. Unless someone tests everyone's product every year, you will likely get erroneous and outdated info. Just my 2¢. Keep the change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch McGie, SASS#71758 Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 A few years ago, the only primers we could get were Russian primers. They all went bang, but about 1 out of 50 on my SDB press were high primers. I think I have just about used the last of those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Problem is that the manufacturers are CONSTANTLY reworking their formula or processes. For instance, as has been stated, CCI is now owned by Federal. I really doubt this is true. Manufacturers stick with component specifications that worked for them in the past. Loading data books are BASED on primers staying the same, especially in how hot and brisant the primer is. It affects internal ballistics - pressure and burn rate. They HAVE to stick pretty close to their tried and true recipes. Doesn't matter WHO buys up WHO ELSE, the loading data has been published and their reputation is on the line if a new batch of primers causes guns to blow up or not fire, because the priming system's behavior is not real similar to what they produced last year. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 For instance, as has been stated, CCI is now owned by Federal. Buzzard, this would be news if it was true, which I believe is not true ... Both CCI & Federal Premium® Ammunition are 2 separate corporations owned by ATK within their Sporting Group http://www.atk.com/business-groups/atk-sporting/ There is no news release on either the Federal Premium or CCI news link stating CCI is now owned by Federal Premium How about posting a varifiable source to support your statement? I doubt that their formulas and processes are that much different anymore You might want to verify this also by reading and then posting the MSDS sheets for CCI & Federal primers Anyhow, the point that I'm trying to make is that you are going to get a lot of opinions and not fact. Yep, youv'e make 2 statements based on zero facts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 I'm sure the conventional wisdom is Federal primers are the softest and CCI primers are the hardest. How do the other brands rate in terms of relative hardness? Matt, can't help you about S&B primers, but Grit's post wraps their quality up nicely. As for convential wisdom, Federal Premium LP primers are not the softest. Here's a hardness test update that I did on multiple brands of primers: 04 January 2014 Update: Test Procedure: Using a Lee Hardness Tester that measures Brinell hardness, placed a new primer on a piece of steel. Held the indent ball on the primer for 30 seconds. Measurement is the diameter of the indent, smaller numbers indication harder brass Additions = * Pistol Primers 0.32 – CCI 300 LP ... Hardest Cup 0.38 – Federal GM150 Match LP 0.40 – Federal 155 LP Magnum 0.40 – Winchester WLP 0.42 – Federal 150 LP 0.42 - Federal 100 SP *0.42 – Remington 1 ½ SP 0.44 – CCI 400 SP 0.48 – Remington 2 ½ LP ... Tie for softest cup *0.48 – CCI LP Lot 0264 ... Tie for softest cup Rifle Primers *0.24 – Herters 120 LR ,,, Hardest cup 0.26 – CCI BR-2 LR 0.28 – CCI 200 LR *0.30 – Rem UMC Nickeled High Pressure LR 0.32 – Federal 215 LR Magnum 0.34 – Remington 9 ½ LR *0.36 – Western 8 ½ LR *0.38 - Rem 7 ½ Bench Rest *0.38 – Alcan LR Magnum *0.40 – Federal 210 LR ... Tie for softest cup *0.40 – Winchester 115 Staynless LR ... Tie for softest cup * 0.30 - Dynamit AG cal 6.34 ... metric primer * 0.32 - Dynamit AG cal 4.5 ... metric primer Note: Rifle primers are harder than handgun primers! All Lot Numbers were not recorded Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Matt, can't help you about S&B primers, but Grit's post wraps their quality up nicely. As for convential wisdom, Federal Premium LP primers are not the softest. Here's a hardness test update that I did on multiple brands of primers: 04 January 2014 Update: Test Procedure: Using a Lee Hardness Tester that measures Brinell hardness, placed a new primer on a piece of steel. Held the indent ball on the primer for 30 seconds. Measurement is the diameter of the indent, smaller numbers indication harder brass Additions = * Pistol Primers 0.32 – CCI 300 LP ... Hardest Cup 0.38 – Federal GM150 Match LP 0.40 – Federal 155 LP Magnum 0.40 – Winchester WLP 0.42 – Federal 150 LP 0.42 - Federal 100 SP *0.42 – Remington 1 ½ SP 0.44 – CCI 400 SP 0.48 – Remington 2 ½ LP ... Tie for softest cup *0.48 – CCI LP Lot 0264 ... Tie for softest cup Rifle Primers *0.24 – Herters 120 LR ,,, Hardest cup 0.26 – CCI BR-2 LR 0.28 – CCI 200 LR *0.30 – Rem UMC Nickeled High Pressure LR 0.32 – Federal 215 LR Magnum 0.34 – Remington 9 ½ LR *0.36 – Western 8 ½ LR *0.38 - Rem 7 ½ Bench Rest *0.38 – Alcan LR Magnum *0.40 – Federal 210 LR ... Tie for softest cup *0.40 – Winchester 115 Staynless LR ... Tie for softest cup * 0.30 - Dynamit AG cal 6.34 ... metric primer * 0.32 - Dynamit AG cal 4.5 ... metric primer Note: Rifle primers are harder than handgun primers! All Lot Numbers were not recorded Interesting info but worthless in determining which goes bang with lightest hammer hit. What is on the inside makes that determination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maker-Wright Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Howdy MMM, When it comes to bullet hardness, we have the Brinell test. When it comes to chamber pressure we have CUP and PSI. We measure powder charge weights to the closest one seventy-thousandth of a pound... But, when it comes to primer sensitivity, apparently the best we can do is compare primers the same way chefs compare cheese hardness; Federal = Soft (Cottage) Winchester = Medium (Gouda) Remington = Medium-Hard (Cheddar) CCI = Hard (Parmesan) I'd suspect that Sellier & Bellot primers fall somewhere between Cottage and Parmesan... yep, it sucks, don't it. I've brought this topic up before, and despite all the self-proclaimed ballistics engineers there are in the world, apparently there is no available ACTUAL CALIBRATED data showing STRIKE FORCE required TO DETONATE a given brand and type of primer (not just make a dent in the cup). As pi**-poor as this seems, it is what it is. So, for now, we'll just have to get by with half-a** speculation, and I'll continue to use stiff enough springs in my guns so they can digest Parmesan if they need to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Only caution I would make with using European primers is that they say they are .001 bigger than American and could stretch your primer pockets making it hard to go back to American. Don't know this from personal experience. Just saw this posted on here a while back. Maybe those with personal experience can comment on this unverified info. No issues here. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Maker, there is a standard test that the manufacturers use to test primers. I've called CCI - Federal and Remington for the output values for there tests, answer ... "Proprietary Information" The test: Primers need two things for reliable ignition: they need to be hit hard and and they need to be hit at very high speed. Primers are tested in a drop fixture. They are placed in a primer holding fixture and a steel ball is released to have an unretarded free fall before striking the fixture. This testing is done with a 2 ounce steel ball dropped from a height of 20 inches which will give 40 inch-ounces of energy when it arrives at the fixture. In Hatcher's Notebooks, he established primer detonation force is in the range of 12 in./oz. for “no fire” to the upper scale of 60 in./oz. for “all fire.” And for the uneducated ... irrespective of the brand of primer, the firing pin must strike the primer in the center for optimum ignition. If the firing pin strikes a primer off center, the anvil will not properly crush into the Lead Styphnate & Barium Nitrate mix and it will be harder for the primer to ignite So the next time a poster whines his primers won't ignite or they partial primer ignition ... have them look at their firing pin strikes to see if they are in the center or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yul Lose Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 If you can get S&B primers get them. I've loaded about 7k S&B large pistol primers in the last year without a failure. They load in the Dillion primer tube filler better than some other brands also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zekest Crowe Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Maker-Wright, You done made me hungry! Hope the wife has some primers, I mean cheese, in the ice box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maker-Wright Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Maker-Wright, You done made me hungry! Hope the wife has some primers, I mean cheese, in the ice box. Sorry 'bout that... I do like a bit of pepperjack or sharp cheddar and crackers now and again my own self. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Skinner Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 I'm a sharp cheddar and Feta man, myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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