Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Captain Bill Burt

You Make the Call

Recommended Posts

Stage directions call for two vertical Nevada Sweeps with the rifle on a 5 target 'tree' shooter may start on whichever side preferred. Shooter engages beginning on the bottom right target (left handed, most shooters began on the bottom left). TO is watching for proper target engagement but not counting hits and misses. After the shooter completes the stage the TO polls the spotters and gets three spotters calling one miss. TO reports the time and one miss, the scorekeeper asks if there wasn't also a P and explains what the scorekeeper thought occurred. The TO did not see a P, but polls the spotters again and gets no Ps, points out to the scorekeeper the lefthanded engagement (scorekeeper says that might have been it) so TO calls 1 miss, no Ps. A member of the posse interjects that it only takes one to call a P. final TO call, 1 miss, no Ps.

 

I've often heard that it only takes one to call a P, but when I reviewed the manuals I couldn't find this (it was a quick review, I may have missed it). I did see that no one other than the shooter can question an RO's call. I'm interested in whether the TO made the correct call, and more importantly, th P issue with respect to, for instance 1 spotter calling one and two not.

 

So, what's the call?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One miss.... No Ps

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Scorekeepers keep score....posse members are not Line Officers..... 1 miss....

 

 

Next shooter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Matthew and Bro King, but what about the 'it only takes one to call a P? What if the one calling it is a spotter, but the other two say no P?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It only takes one to call a "P" or a SDQ/MDQ, too. If that spotter saw it and is absolutely SURE they saw it then that's the call. RO (in my view) and question, but a call is a call if they're flat out sure about it. If the RO won't award the penalty when I'm spotting and sure of it then I refuse to spot again....PERIOD.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Bill,

 

The TO polled the spotters and all agreed that there was no P. After the Scorekeeper gave input or asked a question, the TO polled them again and got the same result. Therefore, no P.

 

However, if the Scorekeeper had pointed something out and the spotters said, "dang, you're right, the shooter did that and it should be a P" then there could have been a P.

 

Remember, not all calls are in the books.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Matthew and Bro King, but what about the 'it only takes one to call a P? What if the one calling it is a spotter, but the other two say no P?

Except for misses, the TO makes the decision. He can even over rule three spotters calling for a P, rare but is perfectly legal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Matthew and Bro King, but what about the 'it only takes one to call a P? What if the one calling it is a spotter, but the other two say no P?

Yes, it only takes one person to call a P (the TO for example) but only one person reports time, misses, penalties, and bonuses to the scorekeeper, that's the TO. If there is one spotter that saw a P, he has to convince the TO because what the TO tells the scorekeeper is what's written down.

 

Fillmore

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The spotters call the misses. The TO can ask clarification but cannot change the call on misses.

 

As I understand, on a procedure, the spotters offer input. Since the TO often has the best view it is up to the TO to take the input and make the call as the TO saw it. The TO does not have to call a P if he or she believes the stage was shot properly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks all! That fits my understanding which was that the spotters are the final word on misses, but the TO is on Ps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's the RO's call on P's, nothing to do with 'scorekeeper' or not. (Normally the scorekeeper does not make calls...) BUT, obviously saw something questionable and said something. Nothing wrong with that. If three spotters and an RO all say there wasn't a P, one scorekeeper or...whatever ain't a-gonna change things...

 

Sounds like the scorekeeper wasn't quite up on the proper stage engagement, asked a question and got an answer. Bosybody posse member says it only takes one to call a P which is correct but its the RO's call and if the scorekeeper said (after getting things explained) 'that might have been it' don't sound like no P to me....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Page 9 RO1 Item 8 B - Spotters

B. Have the responsibility to count shots and misses and to verify the targets were engaged in the correct order for the required number of shots. Spotters will assist the Timer Operator by watching for violations when the competitor retrieves staged firearms and draws revolvers since it is impossible for the Timer Operator to have an unobstructed view of both sides of the competitor's body. Spotters are obligated to stop a shooter from attempting an unsafe action if the Timer Operator is not in position to see it or react quickly enough.

 

Page 9 RO1: Score Keeper

B. Calls out shooting order and records times and penalties. If scoring instructions dictate, the Score Keeper will also total the times and penalties to calculate the shooter's score. It is good practice for the Score Keeper to repeat in a loud, clear voice the scoring time announced by the Timer Operator.

 

C. The Score Keeper can be one of the Spotters.

 

Page 7 RO1 Item 5 A: Timer Operator

A) Is the Chief Range Officer for the stage and is in charge of the firing line, as long as he/she is running the timer.

G. The Timer Operator should not count misses, but watches the shooter for unsafe acts, correct target engagement, and stage procedures in addition to counting shots fired if possible. However, the Timer Operator is often times in the best position to evaluate

hits or misses if in question.

 

K. The Timer Operator polls the three Spotters to determine the number of misses and/or procedural penalties input, and then calls those numbers to the Score Keeper and the competitor in a loud, clear voice.

 

 

It is not in the Score Keepers list of responsibilities to count misses or to look for procedurals unless they have been additionally assigned to be a Spotter. While they are a range officer, so are the loading and unloading monitors and we wouldn't think of them calling a procedural. Each range officer has specific duties. It is not every range officer's job to keep up with misses and procedurals.

 

I believe it is assumed that TO's and other RO's will have the good sense to use their heads and whenever there is any doubt regarding a call, the benefit of that doubt will go to the shooter. There's a reason "benefit of doubt goes to the shooter" is listed in RO1 THREE times. CBB, your TO made the correct call.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks all! That fits my understanding which was that the spotters are the final word on misses, but the TO is on Ps.

The TO announces misses to the scorekeeper, right or wrong, the TO tells the scorekeeper how many misses. Example: spotter 1: 1 miss, spotter 2: 2 misses, spotter 3: 3 misses. The spotters don't tell the scorekeeper how many misses. The TO interprets input from the spotters then HE/SHE tells the scorekeeper how many misses there are.

 

When I'm the TO and I have a new scorekeeper who looks around after a stage to see how many fingers are being held up, I politely instruct said scorekeeper to listen to me as to how many misses there are.

 

The TO tells the scorekeeper the number of misses.

 

Fillmore

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The TO announces misses to the scorekeeper, right or wrong, the TO tells the scorekeeper how many misses. Example: spotter 1: 1 miss, spotter 2: 2 misses, spotter 3: 3 misses. The spotters don't tell the scorekeeper how many misses. The TO interprets input from the spotters then HE/SHE tells the scorekeeper how many misses there are.

 

When I'm the TO and I have a new scorekeeper who looks around after a stage to see how many fingers are being held up, I politely instruct said scorekeeper to listen to me as to how many misses there are.

 

The TO tells the scorekeeper the number of misses.

 

Fillmore

I understand that Fillmore, what I was saying is that the TO simply reports the majority verdict of the spotters on misses, on Ps he makes the final decision. In both cases the TO is the one who physically communicates the results to the scorekeeper.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Matthew and Bro King, but what about the 'it only takes one to call a P? What if the one calling it is a spotter, but the other two say no P?

 

Show me where the rules say, "only one call = a P"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Show me where the rules say, "only one call = a P"

I never said it did, I said I have heard that claim made but been unable to find it in the handbooks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Show me where the rules say, "only one call = a P"

The spotters are watching the targets, the TO is watching the shooter. The shooter does something that warrants a P, only the TO sees it. The TO reports the P to the scorekeeper. The shooter gets a P based on one persons call. So it is written.

 

Fillmore

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The spotters are watching the targets, the TO is watching the shooter. The shooter does something that warrants a P, only the TO sees it. The TO reports the P to the scorekeeper. The shooter gets a P based on one persons call. So it is written.

 

Fillmore

 

Another example:

Only one of the spotters is in a position to see a "P" (or safety violation)...spotter communicates that "input" to the T/O.

If none of the other spotters or the T/O were in a position to verify that the violation did NOT occur, the T/O "makes the call" after considering that "input".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another example:

Only one of the spotters is in a position to see a "P" (or safety violation)...spotter communicates that "input" to the T/O.

If none of the other spotters or the T/O were in a position to verify that the violation did NOT occur, the T/O "makes the call" after considering that "input".

This is one of the most controversy calls I hear at clubs. Many don't understand that it needs only 1 person for a "P" called on shooter. That person maybe the TO only that saw it, and give the shooter the "P" for what he saw.

Be surprise how many think it takes 2 calls for a "P" from spotters.

I've even heard the TOs say that he, (the TO) saw a "P", and since non of the spotters seen it, clean, or no "P". This is something that needs to be emphasized at RO classes. But then, I seen an RO instructor who was TO, and saw the "P", but no spotters seen it, no call.

Thanks for posting this again. MT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.