New Category System

[Harvey Mushman]

Any legal category offered is open to any who qualify, all around the world in the case of "the world championship".

 

If others chose not to enter, that is not the fault of those who do when these are legal classes. This is pretty basic stuff

 

When a sanctioning body has a list of legal categories and holds a world championship event, they have a moral obligation and "contract" with members and entrants to honor those categories.

 

BTW the winner of a one-entry category could be second overall, but also perhaps second in the category he/she was forcefully moved to. Many more examples are easily conjured up.

 

Whether the winners of undersubscribed categories should/would have the same pride or sense of accomplishment is irrelevant to the implicit contract with the sanctioning body.

 

HOwever, If the classes in jeopardy are not regular rulebook classes, then I'm fine with this restriction as the "contract" is not implicit.

[Blue Wolf , SASS# 29424L]

I think if the young ages (Buckaroo and Junior) are going to be protected then protect the other end of the spectrum. I think 70 and above categories should be protected. Anything between is up to number of entries. A flow chart of how the categories collaspe should be made and published in the handbook.

 

For those who want less expensive trophies. This is not an option because most who practice,dedicate time and money to win do not want a Hobby Lobby something. You are spending on most annual, regional, national and World(EOT) matches from $80.00 to $250.00 on entry fees plus travel, lodging, ammo and meals. Granted alot go for the party but alot go to try to win and they want a nice something for their accomplishment.

 

I don't see categories being offered for some years filling up some do but some don't. Like Ladies Frontier Cartridge Duelist this category has always been low at most shoots. Grand Dame is another one, I believe alot of women do not shoot some of the older aged based categories because it is aged based. Women do not like to tell or even insinuate their age, therefore they shoot in the younger categories.

 

I think the Wild Bunch need to develope a collasping flow chart for categories and make it a SASS rule. Publish it in the handbook so all clubs can follow it. Then, don't look back, it will soon become an accepted custom.

 

My two cents,

 

Blue Wolf

[Jacknife]

If there is not the required number of shooters at EOT to have a category, maybe the Wild Bunch should think about doing away with the categories that don't make the grade. Too many anyway.

[backshootin beauford mcgee]

Just when are the WB planning on letting everyone know who are and will be registering for EOT this year? I already registered and have not heard a word. So, if a category is not 'official', what are you.... unofficial? Does that mean no award potential or recognition? More info would be nice to go out to everyone and be noted to those that register so you don't travel all the way to EOT for a 'surprise'.

 

One other inconvenient truth: if you are not informed until after June 1 that your category is 'not official', and you decide not to compete, NO refund for EOT after June 1. So..........if you are told on June 1 that your category is not official, you cannot get a refund AND you cannot switch categories.

 

Never heard of potential for poor marketing. I have gone to annual matches where they have said 'if there are less than X number of people in a category, then no awards made ---- or maybe just for 1st place ---- and they have let folks change categories is that occurs.

 

 

That was my thought when I read the article. It is a rule change that woulde have the effect of making me decide NOT to attend. I can not fathom spending big bucks to do this shoot---- then being told---'sorry, not enough folks in the category you paid for, so we decided you will shoot in this category--- don't like it, too bad and by the way-- No refunds.'

This is an example of being more in tune with the members?????

[Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L]

If there is not the required number of shooters at EOT to have a category, maybe the Wild Bunch should think about doing away with the categories that don't make the grade. Too many anyway.

 

 

The only group you really hurt with your brillant idea are the women, they seem to be the under populated categories, so I will send all the angry ladies your way.

 

KK

[Jed I. Knight, SASS #36423]

I like the Category line-up. But, I’m with the rest of you in thinkin’ they should honor ALL the categories regardless of the number of shooters that show up.

 

If I spend all of my shootin’ time in ONE specific category, that’s what I work on / train for, I don’t want to go to a World (or National) Championship and be told I gotta shoot in some other category!!

[Snakebite]

If there is not the required number of shooters at EOT to have a category, maybe the Wild Bunch should think about doing away with the categories that don't make the grade. Too many anyway.

 

 

Hello Jackknife;

 

This is NOT intended to be a pointed remark toward you ... it is a true inquiry. I've heard it from other sources too, and am trying to get a better grasp on it. "Too many (categories) anyway".

 

How would it effect you if they were to put in a category for one person... say he is the only shooter in the game who is 100 yrs old. Would it effect you in any way?

What if that age were moved down to say, 75 and above... would it effect you in any way?

 

95% (of course this is just a arbitrary guess) of the folks in this game do NOTHING when it comes to putting on a match. They just show up, shoot, and go home. Yet... I see many of them object to what someone else does because it does not meet their own expectations of how it should be. I can see where someone would have a grip if it effected them, but when it has no effect what-so-ever upon them, I have a hard time understanding their objection. This "Too many categories" idea has me wondering why some folks object when it doesn't appear to have any effect upon their own game.

 

Snakebite

[Blue Wolf , SASS# 29424L]

After thinking on this some more. I think the goal of the WB is to have enough competitors in a category to justify the champion. They are trying to get the champions more respect from the shooting community. Think about it there is no reward in winning a category with less than 10 competitors (men) or 5(ladies). I agree competition starts with 2 people but we are talking a national or world champion not the monthly 50 - 100 shooter match. State matches are a little different. You can have a minimun to offer category but the state champion of that category could have come in last, because of the resident rule. Now, if that happened is that person really the state champion?

 

I don't believe any match would just put a shooter in another category without allowing the shooter to choose. Remember every shoot wants and needs return shooters. The rules need published so people know what to expect. Doing this will stop alot of the discontent, but it also needs to be done well in advance of the event.

 

 

Blue Wolf

[Painted Filly]

I have several problems with this. First of all the entry forms have already been coming in and now they are making changes to adding catagories but making these limitations as well. What about all the entries already in and there are elder statemen(Grand Dames) that would like to go to cattle baron/ess and they have no clue that is is offered now. That is very unfair to those people that have already sent in and dont go online and have not recieved their chronicle or dont read it.

 

Also all of a sudden making the limits for catagories at this late date. They should have made these decisions months ago.

 

All of this should have been settled before they opened up the entries.

 

This to me is not very shooter friendly. I am probably going to have to change catagories and that is not fair at a World Championship that I will be able to shoot in the catagory that I have choosen and they offered. I did not choose it because it is small. I chose it cause I want to shoot it and I would love to see it grow but I am only 1 person. I can not force other girls to shoot it. But if they dont then I have to change.

 

Painted Filly

[Painted Filly]

So just because there is only 1 or 2 in a catagory did I not work as hard as someone else? Did I not train every week and shoot in monthlies every week and sometimes twice a week? Did I not buy and have my guns worked on to make sure they are in the best condition? Did I not travel hundreds of miles to different shoots so that I could shoot with different people and learn from others?

 

Do I do this to have fun? You Bet!!! Do I do this to also do the best that I can? You bet!!!!! But just because other girls do not want to shoot the same catagory where is that my fault!

 

Painted Filly

[Noz]

LD is right!

 

I looked it up.

 

When he started the only categories were:

Male and female Neanderthal

and

Male and female Homo Erectus

 

Possum

Should have been more. Traditional club and modified(stone head attached)

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

I agree with Painted Filly on this,,,,

 

It doesn't appear that this was thot out thoroughly....;(

 

Cheyenne, who hopes there are enuff FCGF.

 

this isn't a good idea!

[Noz]

If there were a Left handed Cattle Baron FCD SASS category and I had spent a year preparing myself to shoot the world championships in that category, I should be recognized even if I were the only one there.

 

THEY have established the categories, honor them.

[Ruff Cobb]

Hello Jackknife;

 

This is NOT intended to be a pointed remark toward you ... it is a true inquiry. I've heard it from other sources too, and am trying to get a better grasp on it. "Too many (categories) anyway".

 

How would it effect you if they were to put in a category for one person... say he is the only shooter in the game who is 100 yrs old. Would it effect you in any way?

What if that age were moved down to say, 75 and above... would it effect you in any way?

 

95% (of course this is just a arbitrary guess) of the folks in this game do NOTHING when it comes to putting on a match. They just show up, shoot, and go home. Yet... I see many of them object to what someone else does because it does not meet their own expectations of how it should be. I can see where someone would have a grip if it effected them, but when it has no effect what-so-ever upon them, I have a hard time understanding their objection. This "Too many categories" idea has me wondering why some folks object when it doesn't appear to have any effect upon their own game.

 

Snakebite[/b

 

Along the lines of "Too Many Categories" reminds me of occasions I've also heard "you own too many guns". I used to believe anybody who owned over 10 was a bit different. My personal numerical value on "too many" has risen by about five multiples of this number & is still climbing. I can always justify another niche purchase & I think this describes the SASS evolution of categories. I can't think of anybody demonstrating injury about adding classes but more than a few modern shooters got sore about that category getting the axe.

 

I believe several of the SASS recent marketing decisions show promise. The purchase one entry & get one free for EOT shows promise & the addition of categories is another, albiet, it must be administered to avoid the consternation that deleting the Modern category did. Arbitrary changing of a shooters class after registration is not the way to accomplish customer satisfaction. Regards

[Blastmaster]

If there were a Left handed Cattle Baron FCD SASS category and I had spent a year preparing myself to shoot the world championships in that category, I should be recognized even if I were the only one there.

 

THEY have established the categories, honor them.

 

 

I rather laugh when someone claims they worked really hard in a catagory that has only one shooter. Work hard? why, ya won anyway after first shot went down range.

 

I do think that if a catagory is reconized as an official catagory, then an award should be offered.

 

The value and respect to all catagory winners goes down when I see a Big-O-Buckle winner of a catagory of one. Who else shot in a limited catagory is my thought?

 

Oh well, start flaming away.

[Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L]

Not going to Flame you BM, but it's not the shooters fault only one signed up, the shoot had the ability to inform the shooter if they didn't have enough to populate the category, and if the shooter made a point to shoot and practice that style only to find themselves the only one, doesn't deminish the win any less.

Other than getting to shoot and meeting all kinds of great people, the plaque,trophy,buckles or whatever is the only pay out you get for the time and effort you put into this game for doing your best if thats your goal, whether you have 50 competitors or just yourself.

 

KK

[Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880]

So if seven really good shooters sign up for a category it won't be recognized, but if two good shooters and eight mediocre shooters sign up it will. I get more excited about who is shooting in my category rather than just how many.

 

Dumb idea, WB!

[Painted Filly]

Buffalo Dick,

 

Yes that is the case. I would rather shoot with 7 good too. But that is not how it is going to be it looks like. But for me sometimes it is hard just to get more than 1 or 2 in my catagories, not a lot of women shoot black duelist or gunfighter.

 

Painted Filly

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

 

.... 95% (of course this is just a arbitrary guess) of the folks in this game do NOTHING when it comes to putting on a match. They just show up, shoot, and go home.

 

Snakebite

 

 

Almost right. They show up having PAID, shoot, and go home.

The PAID part makes the relationship very different.

As we hear from time to time, SASS is a commercial enterprise not a .org.

The shooters at EOT and WR are more like customers than just participants.

 

My 2 cents.

[Jack Houston # 35508]

So, I guess Frontier Cartridge B-Western Senior Gunfighter is OUT???

[Blastmaster]

Almost right. They show up having PAID, shoot, and go home.

The PAID part makes the relationship very different.

As we hear from time to time, SASS is a commercial enterprise not a .org.

The shooters at EOT and WR are more like customers than just participants.

 

My 2 cents.

 

OK Hacker,

 

Sign up to be a MD or anyone else that puts on a monthly, annual, regional, state, national or world class match and see just how much your W-2 form shows at the end of the year.

 

 

BTW, Snakebites estimate of 95% is undervalued.

[Painted Filly]

Jack,

 

I think so!

 

Hacker,

 

Yes right now I feel like a customer. I am more than likely going to have to change my catagory. I wont even know about that until mid May.

 

They should have made this determination before they started getting entries. The online registration does not even have the added catagories on it. So if you are signing up online you dont know even know that there are extra catagories.

 

Bad timing I say!

 

Painted Filly

[Crystal Creek Chris SASS #64500]

Lame, in a big way! This is the World Championship. They should recognize every official category listed in the rule book, regardless of the number of people that sign up. Same for WR.

 

If there are categories that don't have "enough" shooters (whatever that means), then maybe those categories should be eliminated?

 

Every official category should be recognized at the worlds!

I agree with you. All official categories should be recognized with awards at both EOT and WR. They want to try new ideas out, try them at regional matches first or vote through the changes before making them.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

Almost right. They show up having PAID, shoot, and go home.

The PAID part makes the relationship very different.

As we hear from time to time, SASS is a commercial enterprise not a .org.

The shooters at EOT and WR are more like customers than just participants.

 

My 2 cents.

+1... I gotta go with Hacker on this concept. Heck, this year alone I shot all over the western US. There is an unmistakable attitude at some clubs that volunteers (who often shoot free- nothing wrong with that) are entitled to an attitude. After all, it seems they did ALL the work.

 

Well, no... I did 12,000 miles and 9 shows in 10 weeks so that I could shoot WR and EOT and TX State and Fort Parker and... I worked my butt off. When my money is not equivalent in value to all your hard work I'll find someplace else to spend it. Some clubs understand this and go out of their way to make a visiting shooter feel welcome.

 

Gee, those are most often the ones sold out early. Go figger...

 

When I started this game I SWORE that I wouldn't get involved politicaly in any club. Been there, did that in sporting clays and got the nasty late night phone calls for some petty crap to show for it. Thanks for all those who do it- without you I couldn't shoot, but take my money and we're even.

[Blastmaster]

So, I guess Frontier Cartridge B-Western Senior Gunfighter is OUT???

 

Not at the Ruckus shoot.

 

Now, the catagory of >>>>> knocked knee'd, cross-eye, buck-tooth, bow-legged, Cattle Baron, b-western, one-handed BP, frontier cartridge, Gunfigher might be in jeopardy. LOL

 

It's all a joke son.!!!

[Crystal Creek Chris SASS #64500]

So I looked up last years results and the 2 catagories from last year would be not honored are Grand Dames and Ladies Frontier Cartridge Duelist. There were 2 grand dames and 4 LFC Duelists. I am signed up for LFC Gunfighter(there were none last year) and so I will probably have to change but if there are not enough LFC duelists I will either have to shoot smokeless or 2 handed which I have not done in almost a year. This is very unfair to us ladies. We are only talking 2 catagories. They should recognize them ALL. This seems like they should have made this decision months ago for people to maybe have put a 2nd option on the sheet or to be aware that they were doing this this year. Is is really fair to put the grand dames down to Silver Senior? I do not think so.

 

Not a fan that is for sure!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Painted Filly

I totally agree that it is not fair to put the Grand Dames down to the next lower age category. Besides, If I had entered I would have wanted to know about this plan of theirs long before now as it would effect my plans for entering, spending all that money to go and the time I would have to take off work and everything.

[Crystal Creek Chris SASS #64500]

If there is not the required number of shooters at EOT to have a category, maybe the Wild Bunch should think about doing away with the categories that don't make the grade. Too many anyway.

think about this though- If you eliminate say Grand Dam- then she will get discouraged, not want to compete anymore and her man will be going alone or not going either. You men encoraged your women to participate in this sport, your happy you have roped her in hook line and sinker and now you don't have to buck her every time you want to go play cowboy. Why, because you have her playing the game too. Let's not do things to rock the happy marriage boat and end up shooting yourselves in the foot. This of course goes out to all you happily married folk who get to do this game with your spouse instead of spending your weekends alone or not getting to play cowboy near as much as you would like to. Just another prospective.

[Painted Filly]

Crystal Creek,

 

That is it exactly. You discourage the women which are the catagories that are being cut and then the men leave. Also I already paid my money and now I am being told that I will more than likely have to change my catagory. That is not fair. We are only talking about 2 to 3 catagories. Does that really save them that much money? Why should the few WOMEN that this will affect have to change? Why should we have to change the way that we shoot? Not our fault!

 

Painted Filly

[Jacknife]

CCC, why not just move down a catagory? The men do it if necessary. Would that be a problem? Of course I am not in agreememt with doing away with the catagories for lack of participation, the Wild Bunch wanted em, so let them reap their harvest. They give ya something and then take it away. Sounds like our political system.

[Blastmaster]

Shooters Handbook, pg13, under Gunfighter catagory,,,8th & 9th bullet item

 

"May use any SASS- legal main match shotgun and any legal main match rifle."

 

May use any SASS- legal ammunition."

 

Shooters Handbook, pg14 under Frontier Cartridge..

 

"Must use blackpowder in all loads (rifle, revolver, and shotgun)"

 

"Must use a side-by-side or lever action shotgun in the main match stages."

 

"Any SASS- legal pistol caliber rifle is acceptable."

 

"Any Main Match fixed sight model revolver"

 

 

 

So if you are setup for FCGF, you can still enjoy your shooting style and smoke in the Gunfigher catagory.

 

 

Just saying.

[Painted Filly]

Jacknife,

 

Yes moving down a catagory is a problem. With Grande dames now you have a much older lady have to compete with younger people. She has earned her catagory why take it way? Here is the problem this does not affect you men only us women. The caqtagories that would not have been offered last year at EOT would have been Grande Dames and Ladies Frontier Cartridge Duelist. Where would the Duelist go? She shoots black powder shoudl she go to the smokeless catagory and be at a major disadvantage because she is shooting Black? NO that is not fair for a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP!!!!!!! should she go to Ladies Frontier Cartridge and either have to shoot 2 handed? or Duelist in a 2 handed catagory? again both are a major disadvantage to someone that has been shooting a certian way all year it is hard to change for 1 match.

 

Try and look at it from our point of view. do we not have the same right to be a WORLD CHAMPION in our chosen catagory even though there may not be as many in our catagory?

 

Painted Filly

[Painted Filly]

Blastmaster,

 

Yes that is true but you are at a disadvantage because you are slower with smoke. So that takes you out of contention for the win. NOT FAIR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Painted Filly

[Blastmaster]

Blastmaster,

 

Yes that is true but you are at a disadvantage because you are slower with smoke. So that takes you out of contention for the win. NOT FAIR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Painted Filly

 

I understand, but wanted you to say it.

 

This issue is not about being denied the ability to shoot the type of guns one wants too, with the choice of ammo (BP vs Smokeless) they want too, nor the sytle of shooting they want too... but about the prize.

 

One could go to 32's shooting 1cc of BP to make minimal smoke and would be very competitive with the smokeless 32 cal shooter.

 

CAS has many different games within the game.

 

Play yours.

[Painted Filly]

Blastmaster,

 

But I have paid my entry and gone into the catagory of my choice. where is it my fault the there are not more people in my catagory. I can not control other people and so I should not be looked at any different because my catagory is under populated. My entry was 200 just like yours. I should be given the same award for how I place. If it is under populated do not give out as many places but 1st is 1st no matter what. If the class is offered should not be taken away if there are entries in it!!!!

 

Painted Filly

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

OK Hacker,

 

Sign up to be a MD or anyone else that puts on a monthly, annual, regional, state, national or world class match and see just how much your W-2 form shows at the end of the year.

 

 

BTW, Snakebites estimate of 95% is undervalued.

 

My point was that the participants don't do nothing but they do pay.

And are often unable to help do any of the work as they are geographically challenged .... ie not there until match time.

 

I was NOT making a statement about those that put the match on.

Except now I see more attitude than I was hoping would be there.

As I expect you are one of those....