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Captain Bill Burt

You make the call.

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Perhaps I can help dig Waco Jim out a bit. The occurrence he witnessed while very similar...was different.

 

Stage instructions said, "When ready, place your rifle on your shoulder." The shooter placed the rifle on his shoulder and when the TO said, "Stand by," the shooter levered a round into the chamber, realized that he had done so before the beep and stopped. After a short discussion with the TO, instead of opening the action of the rifle to move to the unloading table, he lowered the hammer...which was, of course, over a live round.

 

Did TO instuct shooter to lower hammer down on a live round? Understand shooter earned a penalty if he lowered hammer down on his own doings.

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Shooter is a Buckeroo (the only one at the match), maybe 8 years old, shooting his first match. The TO has already supervised the shooter for one stage and observed that his long guns are giving him a little trouble (too big) but the shooter is calm and following directions well. This is the third stage. Shooter comes to the firing line with his pistols and shotgun and an adult caring his rifle. When the shooter is handed the rifle (no 170 issues) he immediately begins to work the lever. TO says Stop! The shooter stops with the lever fully open, there is clearly no round in the chamber. The TO retrieves the rifle and hands it off, explains the mistake to the Buckeroo then sends him to the unloading table with instructions to come back and restart the stage after he clears and reloads.

 

You make the call.

 

As I have said I'm no RO and about all I know about the rules is what other Cowboys have told me or how I have witnessed the rules applied at matches. One of the first things I was told is never have a loaded round under a cocked hammer unless you have heard the beep and are on the firing line. If you do there will be penalties to suffer such as stage DQ or match DQ. In the TO's description of the circumstances, the junior cowboy "Begins to work the lever" which means to me, he cycled the rifle putting a round in the chamber before the stage/event was started by the beep. I have spent the last hour this morning reading the Level 1 and level 2 RO manuals online and found them informative. In fact they should be part of the New Member package from SASS as I suspect many new shooters don't bother reading them online.

 

Waco Jim

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As I have said I'm no RO and about all I know about the rules is what other Cowboys have told me or how I have witnessed the rules applied at matches. One of the first things I was told is never have a loaded round under a cocked hammer unless you have heard the beep and are on the firing line. If you do there will be penalties to suffer such as stage DQ or match DQ. In the TO's description of the circumstances, the junior cowboy "Begins to work the lever" which means to me, he cycled the rifle putting a round in the chamber before the stage/event was started by the beep. I have spent the last hour this morning reading the Level 1 and level 2 RO manuals online and found them informative. In fact they should be part of the New Member package from SASS as I suspect many new shooters don't bother reading them online.

 

Waco Jim

 

Good for you in taking the time to read the RO I & II books. Did you find anything that said it was a penalty for doing what happened? If not, then you were going off someone elses interpetation and a lot of them are not correct.

 

The Shooters handbook was in my membership package way back when. I don't know if they still provide one to the new shooters of today. Even so, a majority of the old/new shooters only know the basic rules and that is all they want. And thats the way it is. And when you get into these very unusual circumstances as on this thread, it takes a whole lot of understanding from all the Handbooks to figure it out and that is why there are these you make the call threads.

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Capt. Bill...........good call in my book.

 

Rye ;)

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Waco, The rules mention coming to the line with the hammer back, with varying penalties based on whether there is a round in the chamber or not. This shooter did not do that, he cocked after he got to the line but before the beep. In that case the relevant rule states that a shooter is entitled to a clean start if a round has not gone downrange.

 

 

 

You go on to say 'Begins to work the lever which means to me, he cycled the rifle putting a round in the chamber before the stage/event was started by the beep'. In the very next line I clearly stated that the shooter was stopped before he finished cycling the lever, there was a round on the carrier, but not in the chamber. I know this because I was standing on his strong side looking down over his shoulder directly into the chamber and it was empty. Furthermore, even if there had been a round in the chamber he still would have been entitled to a clean restart so long as he did not decock without approval.

 

 

 

As you may know when you swing the lever forward a round is extracted from the tube and placed on the carrier, it isn't actually chambered until you close the lever which this shooter did not do.

 

 

 

I definitely did not start this thread to antagonize anyone, PWB has supported the call that was made (as have most of the thread contributors) and that is more than good enough for me. Perhaps you would have awarded a SDQ or MDQ in this situation, but if you had your decision would have been incorrect.

 

 

 

WMD, the stage instructions called for the rifle to be first with the shooter starting "Rifle in hands". He had just received the rifle from his mother, but he mistakenly began to cock before receiving the standby and subsequent beep.

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Waco, was the rifle the first gun to be used at the stage ?

 

 

That really would not matter either. A round had not went down range. He broke no saftey rule.

Shooter gets a restart. Period.

 

Really all he did was jump the timer. That's it.

And anytime someone jumps the timer. You restart them. (or you should)

 

Even if he had levered one in the chamber. He put no round down range.

He did not move with it. RO took it from there.

 

Everybody did good. Kid just jumped the gun a little.

For those wanting to add something else to it.

 

Go find the rule that he broke???? Show me.

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Being the first gun I would have had him shoulder rifle at the target with the leaver open. At buzzer close leaver and shot.

 

He's only 8 yrs old and his first shoot. I would keep him at the line after he shot and explain to him what he did wrong. You could have shock him up alot if you had him start unloading guns before he shot (8 yrs old) Besides I've seen shooters do this and they weren'

t 8yr. old

 

I know some of you think am wrong but that's my story and sticking to it.

 

WMD

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The shooter stops with the lever fully open, there is clearly no round in the chamber.

 

 

Perhaps I can help dig Waco Jim out a bit. The occurrence he witnessed while very similar...was different.

 

Stage instructions said, "When ready, place your rifle on your shoulder." The shooter placed the rifle on his shoulder and when the TO said, "Stand by," the shooter levered a round into the chamber, realized that he had done so before the beep and stopped. After a short discussion with the TO, instead of opening the action of the rifle to move to the unloading table, he lowered the hammer...which was, of course, over a live round.

 

 

Perhaps you would have awarded a SDQ or MDQ in this situation, but if you had your decision would have been incorrect.

 

Howdy Bill, What Waco saw according to Buck, and what you experianced are apples and oranges. In your OP no round was ever chambered, therefore you made the correct call.

What Wac saw (again according to Buck) was a round chambered, and then then hammer lowered on a live round. In this case I completely understand his concerns.

 

In Waco's case (and an option for your OP), IMHO the shooters should have pointed the rifle down range and fired the live round, leaving action closed on an empty. Then the rifle could be carried to the unloading table and made safe. They both deserved a Re-Start

 

RO I page 15-16-17

2. Long guns will have their actions open with chambers and magazines empty and muzzles pointed in a safe direction when being carried to and from the designated loading and unloading areas for each stage.

 

NO gun may be de-cocked on the firing line except by pointing it down range and pulling the trigger or while under the direct supervision of the Timer Operator.

 

Once a rifle is cocked, either the round under the hammer must be expended or the action opened in order for the rifle to be returned to a safe condition.

Safe for movement rifle in hand only

Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended round, action closed

Action open, round on carrier or in chamber

 

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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Howdy Bill, What Waco saw according to Buck, and what you experianced are apples and oranges. In your OP no round was ever chambered, therefore you made the correct call.

What Wac saw (again according to Buck) was a round chambered, and then then hammer lowered on a live round. In this case I completely understand his concerns.

 

In Waco's case (and an option for your OP), IMHO the shooters should have pointed the rifle down range and fired the live round, leaving action closed on an empty. Then the rifle could be carried to the unloading table and made safe. They both deserved a Re-Start

Why not just have the shooter OPEN THE ACTION before moving to the ULT? instead of firing a round downrange (off the clock)?

 

RO I page 15-16-17

2. Long guns will have their actions open with chambers and magazines empty and muzzles pointed in a safe direction when being carried to and from the designated loading and unloading areas for each stage.

This doesn't apply on the firing line...the rifle is carried from the LT to the stage with the magazine loaded. It can be carried from the stage to the ULT in the same condition; OR with the action open (see below)

 

NO gun may be de-cocked on the firing line except by pointing it down range and pulling the trigger or while under the direct supervision of the Timer Operator.

 

Once a rifle is cocked, either the round under the hammer must be expended or the action opened in order for the rifle to be returned to a safe condition.

 

Safe for movement rifle in hand only

• Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended round, action closed

Action open, round on carrier or in chamber

 

...

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Why not just have the shooter OPEN THE ACTION before moving to the ULT? instead of firing a round downrange (off the clock)?

 

I understand and agree, just thought it was another option, especially in Waco's case.

 

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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I'm late to this party and haven't read the thread, but there are 2 pages on this?

 

NO CALL- period.... whether he's a Buckaroo or not it's a new shooter and nothing went downrange.

 

Now.... there must be a catch or an add that wasn't in the OP, RIght?

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Now.... there must be a catch or an add that wasn't in the OP, RIght?

 

BK,

 

The thread was going along so well till post #2, then as usual, the train thread started speeding up and leaving the tracks. LOL

 

 

Another firey crash and burn.....so to speak. Yo'all just have to read all the post and decide fer ur self.

 

 

Kidding. :lol: Your turn.

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I'm late to this party and haven't read the thread, but there are 2 pages on this?

 

NO CALL- period.... whether he's a Buckaroo or not it's a new shooter and nothing went downrange.

 

Now.... there must be a catch or an add that wasn't in the OP, RIght?

 

FYI - the alias "Brother King" is already registered to someone else.

If you're new here, I would suggest using another login name. ;)

 

BTW...a 2-page minimum is SOP for a WtC? thread. :rolleyes:

 

:P

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BTW...a 2-page minimum is SOP for a WtC? thread. :rolleyes:

 

:P

 

Just think PWB, only 20 more posts to go....I think the WIre is gonna make the 2 page minimum. Let's just hope everyone reading it has had the two drink minimum so's they can understand it :)

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FYI - the alias "Brother King" is already registered to someone else.

If you're new here, I would suggest using another login name. ;)

 

 

 

ROTFLMAO!!!!

 

Seems Brother King is slacking on his meds again. :P

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FYI - the alias "Brother King" is already registered to someone else.

:P

 

Perhaps the other is his evil twin? :rolleyes:

 

Working toward the end of page 2

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Perhaps the other is his evil twin? :rolleyes:

 

Working toward the end of page 2

 

 

Holy bejeebus, if the original isn't the evil one I can't even imagine how bad the twin must be.

 

(Doing my part to get us to page 3)

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Holy bejeebus, if the original isn't the evil one I can't even imagine how bad the twin must be.

 

(Doing my part to get us to page 3)

 

Going off-off topic here.

 

Going to the Ruckus Philly?

 

another step toward page 3 :rolleyes:

 

Back on topic.

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