Mudflat Mike, SASS #20904 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 A friend has come across a cased set of 1860 colt army's , engraved and gold inlaid with silver "tiffany" grips. Anyone know a real expert on Colts that can take a look? A letter from colt is already requested, but it might take awhile and I don't know how long the guns will be available for sale. http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af88/mudflatmike/Colt-1.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jake1001 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 A friend has come across a cased set of 1860 colt army's , engraved and gold inlaid with silver "tiffany" grips. Anyone know a real expert on Colts that can take a look? A letter from colt is already requested, but it might take awhile and I don't know how long the guns will be available for sale. http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af88/mudflatmike/Colt-1.jpg I've known and dealt with John @ Little Johns Auction Service for 35+ years. http://www.littlejohnsauctionservice.com/ He is in Orange County Calif. Big Jake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudflat Mike, SASS #20904 Posted November 3, 2011 Author Share Posted November 3, 2011 Update: Nice old colts, worth $200,000, yours today for a mere $55,000 Execpt: They're fakes Offered by an old con man in San Diego and faked by a known "artist" in that area. Thanx for the info on the expert, he really knows his stuff! He knew right away who did it and when. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Shapiro Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Wow, good thing they got checked out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jake1001 Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Update: Nice old colts, worth $200,000, yours today for a mere $55,000 Execpt: They're fakes Offered by an old con man in San Diego and faked by a known "artist" in that area. Thanx for the info on the expert, he really knows his stuff! He knew right away who did it and when. I'm glad you called him, I've just saved somebody a bunch of $$$$. When in doubt, check it out. Just sayin' Big Jake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixgun Shorty, SASS #35717 Life Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 + 1 Absolutely and obviously faked..could maybe fool an inexperienced buyer, but not a knowledgeable collector.Too many obvious 'flaws' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goody, SASS #26190 Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 + 1 Absolutely and obviously faked..could maybe fool an inexperienced buyer, but not a knowledgeable collector.Too many obvious 'flaws' What are the telltale signs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Absolutely and obviously faked..could maybe fool an inexperienced buyer, but not a knowledgeable collector.Too many obvious 'flaws' Yeah. For those of us who are not knowledgeable collectors, could you list some of the many obvious flaws? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Jones, SASS 2263 Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 It looks to me that both pistols exhibit uneven wear. The cylinders have lost some of their finish and the ramrods as well. But, they appear unfired in all other respects (at least the parts that are visible). Don't know what other flaws might be visible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Man Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Sometimes it just damn hard to know what to look for. I got took a few years ago on a Colt myself. The best way to know is from experence. When one collects a special series it is best that he has onther know exsample that he has had in his hands for hour and knows ever detail about it. Even then there have been a few really sharp dudes out there that knew the same thing and faked guns. I have know a number of them and I remember back in the mid 1950s several that were doing it back then. Many times an honest collector will have a gun that is not right and not know it and those who know the difference most of the time dont want to be the one to tell him. The first thing is to know what size and location the marking are as often a different size die will be used to fake a gun. Hammer cuts can gice hints as well and the best is still to know from expernce with know true guns what is missing or what is not surposed to be there. I had once been at the Houston Gun Show a number of years ago when almost at closing time an old woman and her two sons showed up with old spurs and in general junk in three number 3 washtubs on a table. I notice a Texas Paterson of the pil;e of junk and ask to look at it. I knew something was not right but I could not put my finger on it as to what it was. They wanted $10.000 for it and at the time it would bring $150.000 t0 $200.000 if it was real. I was almost out the door when I happen to run into the king of fakers in Texas and calling out Jim have You seen that Paterson that just came in and with great excitement he ask me to go show him where it is. We walked back to the table and as soon as Jim picked it up he said its a damn fake and threw it down and walked away. As we walked off, I asked Jim how he knew so fast and he said it was missing the crawling snakes on each side of the barrel address. A few years later I was talking to an advancerd collector and told hjim about Jim and the gun. He burst out laughting and I ask him what was so funny and he said "Hell OLD JIM haS FAKED ENOUNG HIMSELF TO KNOW THAT RIGHT AWAY. I had traded some with Jim but I knew I had to watch him like a hawk. Another time I witnessed a doctor who had a baby Paterson inhis hands as he ask some young guy about 25 to look at the gun and tell him if it was worth $37.000 he had paid for it. I never knew who the young man was but he pulled the barrel off and looked under the cyclinder boss and ask the doctor if he wanted to know the truth or what he didnot want to hear. He said the truth and the young man told him it was a fake and asking how he knew he pointed to under the boss and told the doctor "I dont know why they did it but a true Paterson all ways has file marks here". The doctor thanked him and ask if he wanted to gun free. He said no keep it as a paperweight. Last year I was at a auction and there was a1851 Navy Colt that had the serial number 8 stamped on the frame in a huge size over where the frame had been ground off smooth. One guy was telling me he wanted the gun and I told him what he needed to look for and he said he knew more about it than I did so,,,,,,, Your Pard, Texas Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixgun Shorty, SASS #35717 Life Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Like Texas man said, you reach a point after years of collecting, buying and selling antique Colts where you can just look at a pistol and know something aint Kosher. As soon as i saw the picture of this Pair I would have bet the house that they were faked..good fakes, but still fakes for sure! In this case first giveaway is the gold plating or gold 'wash'..without consulting one of my reference boooks, i believe Colt made very few pistols or pairs of engraved 1860's in a gold wash, and never in my experience, a pair of 1860's with half gold and half silver plate.I won't swear by that, but that's how i remember it.The wear on the cylinder also looks man applied and not natural.And finally, Tiffany Grips , real ones at least from the 19th century are very rare.. Tiffany grips are notorious for being forged.Again, without thorough examination, almost impossible to be sure, but i would sure venture an educated guess that the Tiffany grips are also fake.The frame screws and the gold triggers also don't look original to me.The triggers don't even look like factory Colt for that matter. Also, the Nimschke style engraving is just not as precise and elegant , as finely carved or as deeply carved as true Nimschke engarving that i have seen.(look at the continuity of the scrollwork..there are subtle differences from panel to panel and gun to gun..at least to my eye) Next, the pair just doesn't look like a matched pair but a cobbled together 'pair' of similarlly forged/faked pistols, similar, but not 100% alike.At least to my eye.I am no percussion era expert like Texas Man is,and I have nothing but respect for his wealth of Colt knowledge in general, percussion era in particular. but i can normally spot a fake(but not all the time!) and if given the chance to examine this pair under a glass with proper reference books at hand, could certainly validate that this pair is a 100%faked. Engraved 1860's,, though are somewhat rare in themselves,and pairs are very rare as far as1860's go..very few engraved pairs were made by Colt mainly for presentation and mostly single, cased guns.The case itself is suspect as the rips and tears appear man made to me to make it appear older than it is, and the felt appears man-aged so to speak.. The cap tin also looks out of place with this pair of Colts, unless the barrel address is London..certianly the accoutrements are not the ones that came with this pair of Colts Like I said, to fully ascertain validity, you must have the gun in hand with appropriate references.But on the surface and face of it, This pair stands out, at least to me, as total fakes. The overall 'look' of this pair just doesn't look historically correct or Colt Factory prepared.The gold wsh and silver plating throw me the biggest curve..I have never seen of a pair of 1860's with gold used to that extent, and I am pretty sure that there were few at best gold 1860's factory plated, particulalry in this extensive a combination with silver plate. Finally, IF they were genuine, NOBODY would sell them for a mere $55K! Ridiculous..If genuine would easily command mid six figure prices.Gold washed 1860's are extrememly rare . I have been wrong many times before, but from only the pictures available that would be my professional assessment..Bear in mind that I am assuming a lot, as the pictures are hardly definitive.Also, Rememeber, I am only pointing out those 'faults' that seem the most suspect to me. No matter what the various suspect faults may be, the pair of Colts are most certainly faked as has been noted in a previous post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddnews SASS# 24779 Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 This forum is sometimes better than a full library of gun books. I learn something new here all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kansas City Jack #9243 Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 I don't know nuttin about old colts, BUT just wanted to say HOWDY ! to Mudflat Mike. H O W D Y ! ! Mudflat Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudflat Mike, SASS #20904 Posted November 3, 2011 Author Share Posted November 3, 2011 Hey Jack! longtime no see (or hear from)! Hope you're well and everything's coming up daisy's for ya! Been on TV lately? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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