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Granny Annie SASS #37063

Has anybody actually seen a 70-150 Cal. Winchester ?

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At Comin' At Cha my ol' buddy Coyote Cap was telling my hubby about a rifle he was working on. Something called a 70-150 caliber. Well he has finished it and it appears to be quite a cannon.

 

So -- has anyone actually ever seen one? Blacksmith Hoss really really wants to shoot one. I think he's nuts!! I'm also in fear for the condition of our checking account!!!!! :ph34r:

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It's my understanding it was made form a 12 ga brass shell and might have been for the lever action shotgun M-87. A collector friend said some of the early winchester cartridge boards had them mounted but no rifles seem to be sold in that caliber. Gary

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Apart from a picture in a book, probably very few people have ever even heard of it, let alone seen one. As far as I know, they only existed as mock-ups on some Winchester cartridge boards about 100-120 years ago. It is basically a necked-down 10-gauge shotgun shell, to be used in a modified M1887 shotgun, and never got past the proposal/experimental stage. I think a small handfull of guns have been made up in the last several years by folks who want to have "The Biggest" for braggin' rights.

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Howdy, the Winchester 70-150 was a hypothetical rifle cartridge round. Only one rifle

was chambered for it around 1888. Goggle 70-150. Very interesting reading..... :blush:

HAppy trails

QDG

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I came across the following a few years ago when I was searching for info on '87's

 

SPECIAL NOTE: A few of the first M/87’s were made in the .70-150 rifle cartridge & were designed to shoot a .70 cal bullet of 700-900 grains over 150 grains of black powder. These rifle/shotguns had only the last 6 inches of the barrel rifled.

 

DIMENSIONS: (70-150 Winchester Express) Total length 2 5/8 in.

2 3/16-In. brass necked case. Dia. At head .803 Dia. At mouth .725.

Even though it was displayed on the Winchester cartridge board virtually little if anything is known of this giant among cartridges.

To Paul S Foster, Chief Inspector of the Ammunition Division of the Winchester Repeating Arms Co goes the credit for clearing up the mystery surrounding this giant. He writes in “Guns Digest” (6th edition) those recently discovered factory records show this cartridge to have been produced in 1888. A special rifled barrel was fitted to one of their M/87’ shotguns. He reports that one of the old employees of Winchester had told him of seeing, and puzzling over, such a gun in the old company’s testing range. A cartridge dealer some years back had two full boxes of these rarities …verifying the fact that not all of them appeared on cartridge boards made up by Winchester.

 

 

50-170 Article

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Thanks for the information. I also found the following information on Coyote Cap's website. Interesting! We just have to see this one!

 

----------------------------------------

 

CAP's BLOG

 

We recently completed a project that has never been done in over 100 years. That project is the re-introduction of the 70-150 Winchester rifle.

 

This cartridge first appeared on the 1888 Winchester Cartridge Boards and to our knowledge the only gun chambered for the 70-150 was a specially-built Model 1887 lever action shotgun. Unfortunately, the Winchester 1887, 70-150 "Rifle" was never put into production.

 

After 123 years, Coyote Cap Gunworks has successfully built the rifle for a special customer that wanted a little bit more power and because the Coyote Cap 1887 Special Edition can withstand a chamber and frame pressure beyond 44,500 psi.. he took those pressure facts and decided not to use the original 70-150 shortened and slightly necked 12.ga. brass shotgun shell, but Instead, he commissioned a custom made "Wildcat" cartridge to be hand made that could be loaded to a "Super Magnum", using a straight shouldered and much longer heavy brass casing that could hold a 900 grain flat nosed "slug" for a bullet.

 

That rifle now exists and it is called a "73 SANDERS". It weighs in at 12 lbs. with the special 24" rifled barrel. The gun has a total capacity of (6) rounds and the action had to be re-timed to allow for the longer cartridge. In test firing a much lighter load, the fired slug embedded itself 2-1/2 inches into a frozen Oak Tree. Removing the slug proved to be quite difficult, but the bullet had mushroomed perfectly and it still would have taken down a Bull Elephant with only one shot.

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This is something Shotgun Bill had plans for probably 7 or 8 years ago. I know he had everything to build the loading dies to. Matter of fact I believe he had Kreiger build him 2 barrels for the guns as well. I believe the barrels are supposed to be paradox to help relieve some pressure when fired. Fireball might have had a bullet mold made for the round as well. Video of it being shot would be nice.

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This is something Shotgun Bill had plans for probably 7 or 8 years ago. I know he had everything to build the loading dies to. Matter of fact I believe he had Kreiger build him 2 barrels for the guns as well. I believe the barrels are supposed to be paradox to help relieve some pressure when fired. Fireball might have had a bullet mold made for the round as well. Video of it being shot would be nice.

 

 

Actually Fireball built the rifle a few years ago. It's about 70% done with mostly cosmetic stuff left to do. I have a dummy cartridge he loaded as he had dies and a bullet mold made. I was also there when he shot it for the first time. We had it tied to a tire. 250gr. of BP with a 970gr. Bullet. I took a video of the first shot. I will see if I can post it on here.

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Here it is. Fireball built it off of a 1901 10ga. action. I will post pics of the dummy round later big gun.

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Ah that is why Bill had 2 barrels made. I'm sure it was the one that went on Fireball's gun. I knew there was colaboration there somewhere.

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Did he have to get into NFA registration and such because of the "greater than .50 bullet diameter" or did the original date of 1888 that the gun was a copy of exclude him from the hassles? Smithy.

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Smithy, maybe ATF still considers the contraption a shotgun and thus exempt from the over 50 caliber ban??

 

That makes sense. I didn't even think about that. Smithy.

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Ah that is why Bill had 2 barrels made. I'm sure it was the one that went on Fireball's gun. I knew there was colaboration there somewhere.

 

Yup, as you know Fireball used to spend some time with Bill in his shop and I think some of it rubbed off on Fireball.

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I really, really like my original 1887 12-gage. After learning about this monster-cartridge, I cannot help but think that I know where a 1901 10-gage is for a song. It need some TLC and would never be a collectible. Rebarreling is likely the only significant problem with this project. I would be tempted to use a 10-gage full-brass shell, shouldered down to .70". Wouldn't that be cool for long-range cowboy???!!!

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I would advise lying on the ground behind sandbags when he lights that thing off.

 

 

...in the next county.

 

Olen :D

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It's been done more recently than 100 years ago :rolleyes:

 

Clymer named it the "700 Fireball Express" and the loaded round is pictured below next to a 45 Colt.

 

700 Fireball Express

 

Built on an original 1901 Winchester using a Kreiger barrel (they make 70 cal for the 700 Holland and Holland). Bill and I did indeed collaborate on it. Mountain molds made a mold to my specs, it weighs about 970 grains. Using 12 ga brass hulls necked down and loaded by custom dies that we made using reamers from Clymer it will hold over 200 grains of BP to the base of the bullet. Smokeless loads will eventually be developed.

 

 

Deuce took the video with his cell phone out behind the Lab, at the old Swamp location.

 

The rifle still needs to be prettied up(no blueing or CCH) and I intend to restock it with a chuck of crotch Black Walnut harvested from The Swamp. The barrel band front sight mount and quarter ribs need to be finished up as well.

 

Oh, and we did it several years ago.

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You just nerver know when you might run into an angry mastodon!

 

Just who is gonna hold this thing? Why would anyone build a cannon like this? Where can I get one???

 

Cool project, sure would like to touch it some day.

 

CR

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Or charging squirrels :blink:

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Did he have to get into NFA registration and such because of the "greater than .50 bullet diameter" or did the original date of 1888 that the gun was a copy of exclude him from the hassles? Smithy.

 

 

Maybe BATF considers the recoil to be sufficient punishment for not (if required) getting the clearance of the round! :ph34r:

 

Ride easy, but stay alert! Godspeed to those still in harm's way in the defense of Freedom everywhere! God Bless America!

 

Your Pard,

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