Mystery Uberti

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

I need some help understanding a newly acquired Uberti SAA clone.   4-3/4" barrel, nickel finish.  It's got the ubiquitous Uberti style safety in the hammer.

When I got it home, I started entering it into my personal records, and of course, once of the things I wondered was who imported it.  I started looking for markings, and this what I found...

Left side: 

Back of barrel near frame:  45 COLT

On frame below cylinder:  Three patent date lines

Just behind trigger guard:  45CAL

Bottom of barrel, just in front of cylinder pin:  A UBERTI - ITALY 45

In front of trigger guard and on bottom of frame:  matching serial numbers 124xxx   There is also a P above both serial numbers.  It's also on the bottom of the grip handle.

All pretty straightforward.   But here is where it get intriguingly mysterious to me.

Top of barrel:    U.S. PT F.A.  MFG.  Co.
                             HARTFORD. CT. U.S.A.

 

That last set of markings confuses the heck out of me.   Is this actually a USFA made with Uberti parts?  I've read here conflicting assertions as to if they ever did so.   Is this proof that they did?   What the heck have I found?

 

Edited February 1 by H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619

[Tex Jones, SASS 2263]

Early on, USFA pistols were put together here from imported parts manufactured by Uberti.  Even when production was done entirely in CT, the specs were still Uberti.  Parts may have been changed, either in the factory or by individual owners.  My USFAs have Uberti parts in them, including barrels and cylinders.  Try to get hold of Gary Grainger if he is still with VTI Gun Parts and he may have more info for you.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Found this article.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/this-old-gun-united-states-patent-fire-arms-tombstone-buntline/

It's about a specific model, but has some good information about these early USFA's.   Apparently, Uberti parts assembled and finished here.   Never thought I'd have a USFA of any kind.   And now I sorta do.

Fascinating.

 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

Top of barrel:  U S Patent Firearms Manufacturing company.  This was later renamed USFA.  U S PT FA is/was in fact USFA.  In the beginning of USFA history, their guns were made using parts imported from Uberti, in "The White" which were then completed in Hartford, CT.  USFA gradually graduated to All USA parts, which USFA manufactured in house.  ALL specifications and dimensions were exactly the same as Uberti excepting tiny embellishments and final build quality.

 

USFAistas go all ballistic when, as a Gunplumber, I describe US PT FA as gussied up Uberti's.  USFA all USA parts guns are in actuality nothing more than copies of Uberti's guns made in the USA.  Ergo: USFA production is actually a "clone" of a Uberti but not an SAA.

 

As common is it is, Uberti had never made an SAA "Clone."  Totally inappropriate word.  The guns are replicas that "resemble" the SAA.  Not even close to "Clone."  The "Clone" term was dreamed up by past magazine scribes that actually knew next to nothing but wrote drivel for magazines in the past.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Once they switched to made in the USA parts, did they retain that weird safety thing in the hammer?  If not, then they are closer to the SAA than the Uberti...

 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

Well, they would really then be closer to the Cimarrons than the SAA, as the Cimarrons did away with that hammer-block safety long ago.  Didn't see it mentioned, but I think USFA they dropped the "Patent" from the name after pressure from Colt.  Gary Granger was mentioned above, sometimes he posts on the USFA forum on CASCity.

[Tex Jones, SASS 2263]

33 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

Once they switched to made in the USA parts, did they retain that weird safety thing in the hammer?  If not, then they are closer to the SAA than the Uberti...

 

USFAs never had a safety block since they weren't Ubertis.

Edited February 1 by Tex Jones, SASS 2263

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

1 hour ago, Tex Jones, SASS 2263 said:

USFAs never had a safety block since they weren't Ubertis.

Well...

Here's my pistol.



As you can see, it's not pristine, but is still in overall pretty good shape.   Comparing it to some of my other Uberti pistols, I have to say that the wood to metal fit is much better.

And yes, it is a USFA



This is from the top of the barrel.

And, yes, it is also an Uberti



This is from the bottom of the barrel.

And yes....   It does have that weird hammer block safety.

 

So, apparently, the early USFA's were indeed made with Uberti parts.

Edited February 2 by H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619

[Cholla]

There is a great deal of USFA information on the Coltforum, including this thread: https://www.coltforum.com/threads/usfa-use-uberti-or-colt-parts.404746/?post_id=3557257#post-3557257

[Cholla]

This is from Cozmo, who used to be on this forum under his SASS alias that escapes me at the moment:

 

I' trimming horses today. Pretty much and all-day job here. So, I'll try to make this short and sweet. But some of you guys aint making it easy  'cus friend, there is some real horse droppings in the above comments, some not even close to gospel.

If they ever need a bolt, frame screw, spring, etc, where do you go looking for parts?

Try the local suppliers first for old NOS USFA parts (try VTI) or now may be even Standard if they will sell you anything. Same basic gun from Standard, no matter what they claim isn't.
 

I have been told that Colt springs work in them

Any Colt, after market or Uberti spring will work. Pick your own poison there.

 

will Uberti small parts fix the rest?

May be, "generally", yes. But the fitting may require a lot more than planned and a complete change of all the internals to Uberti to get the gun timed right again.


First Colt and USFA parts are not the same, or even close for the most part. They aren't easily interchangeable although unknowing knuckleheads try to swap them out all the time. I've found more than one Uberti trigger or bolt in a Colt. Generally, makes a mess of the Colt by then.

Uberti, USFA, USPFA and now Standard are all quality single action guns. None are replicas of a Colt. No more than a Ruger single action is really. They are bigger and heavier for one thing. Pietta makes a nice replica of what was intended to be a replica, of a 2nd Gen Colt. For the most part they accomplished than rather well, I think. Piettas have some issues, but so do 3rd Gen Colts. Pietta just have more issues, but cost 75% less than a 3rd Gen Colt. I have stopped buying Ubertis and now buy Piettas when I want a new shooter. I have grown to detest the larger frames and heavier guns of a USFA or Uberti. You want to shoot hot 45 Colt or 45 acp loads? Buy a Uberti or USFA or Standard. Bigger cylinders and more meat in the cylinder lock slots. But none of the Colt clones are strong enough for actual +P 45 Colt loads. Ask me how I know that is a fact.

USPFA marked barrels are all Italian parts guns. As in US P FA

On USFA marked barreled guns, "Uberti parts were still used up through the 20XXX and 215XX+ serial range." You were right on Dave. This is what I use for my own cut off serial number searches 22500+. And I generally won't buy anything under 24,000 or a E prefix for a Rodeo. BTDT too many times early on.

But be careful here if you are looking at an odd caliber! 32wcf and 38 wcf can be culprits with Italian parts or one-off, hand-built guns with a mis-match of parts from USFA. They are almost always really nice guns but the parts may be a hassle for you if you ever have to replace anything. I had a 7.5" 38wcf that was a beautiful gun, 23000+ serial # but even the cylinder bushing was old school Uberti and the hammer was cast. Not a great buy on my part. But who knew?!

Early USpFA marked guns were all Uberti parts finished in the US. (check the serial numbers)
Later guns USFA (blue and cased or bright nickel) were a mismatch of Uberti parts and USA made parts, all made to Uberti spec (internals) and some to USFA's own specs. Later hammers with a cone firing pin are a great example. USFA late made cone firing pin hammers, will actually fit just fine and work fine in a 1st Gen Colt. (too bad they aren't still being made) Finding a cone firing pin gun is a quick way to verify it is a USA made gun, but again not always 100% by any means. Close though. Hammers in general are an easy tell for USA made guns. Hand cut checkering is almost always a USA made gun. Cast hammers and cast checkering is always a Uberti parts gun.


The early D Series Rodeo Is have Uberti parts. Later Rodeos (and some later Ds) are all USA parts
All Rodeo II guns are USA made (rodeo I and Rodeo II serial numbers start at a D prefix and go to S prefix

All the Cowboy (serial number to Cowboy specific, CB, but they are "just" a highly polished Rodeo I) guns are all USA made parts. Great gun to sue as an engraving project. Although all of mine have been straight up Rodeo Is.

All Gunslingers are USA made parts (antiqued finish Rodeo I with its own serial number range) Serial numbers typically start in the 5XXXX range. There were some limited runs of other numbers. One series started with DSVETXX.

China Camps are usually Uberti guns (the best Uberti parts guns ever made IMO) but there are some late made China Camp guns that are all USA parts . CC serial number range.

USFA stopped making all the single action guns in 2011. So, we are now over 20 years out. Any number of Rodeos Is and Cowboys are being refinished to blue and cased or nickeled, both bright for a deluxe model and if matte nickel to resemble a Rodeo II. Some done much better than others. Pays to know what you are looking at.

Most Bisleys are Italian parts guns
Inspector series guns early on (by serial number) are Italian parts guns, later guns were USA made parts guns

Double Eagles are all USA made

Traditional birds-head style grips are typically all Uberti parts guns.

Sheriff's Model can be Uberti or USA parts (serial numbers can tell you)

Store Keepers (short barrel with ejector) are typically USA made parts

If you are unable to tell yourself, and you want to be sure you have a USA parts in your gun, stay above 23,000 to be safe. And be extra careful on anything else.

And for those that "Just gotsta know?"

weight 4 3/4", 45 Colt cal:

usfa 992g 35.0oz
Colt 918g 32.4oz
 

The best place to get USFA info is at the CAS site

Gary Granger the last office manager @ USFA hangs out there on occasion, still I hope.
A couple of the guys (master smiths) that worked at USFA and now at Standard have posted there as well
I post there are as Yahoody
Hopefully Ben ("WWYS" here) will show up shortly and fill whatever I missed.


More trivia from the overloaded minds of J&D 

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

My pair of 38-40 USFAs are consecutive numbered Cowboys that use to be Manatee’s personal revolvers that I purchased from him years ago at a Comin at Cha after he finished shooting the match.

[Boggus Deal #64218]

Long Hunter has a few USFA parts listed on the clearance page of his website. 

[Bailey Creek,5759]

Looks like lettering on an Arm san marco.

[Cholla]

The barrel markings appear to be carefully hand engraved. The Uberti marking less carefully. Take that for what’s it’s worth.