Champeen/KOK/SOS and Max Velocity

[Idaho Gunslinger]

I chrono'd some of my 45 Colt loads with 250gr and 200gr bullets and my 250gr are stepping right on the toes of the Max Velocity  and my 200gr were over the Max for both rifle and pistol. Are people using filler for KOK and SOS? I know filler is not allowed for CHN.

 

I was loading 3F Triple Seven. For the 250gr I loaded 27gr (by weight) which was a 1.9cc scoop and just barely touching the base of the bullet. It may not have been if the powder settled any later. The 200gr I loaded with 30gr (by weight) which was somewhere between a 1.9cc and 2.2cc scoop and again just barely touching the bullet. 

My new model Vaqueros have 5.5" barrels and my 1866 was cut down to 18.5". It was about 55-60 degrees out when I was chronographing these. 

 

	4/24/2024	4/24/2024
	NMV	1866
200gr	30gr 777	30gr 777
5	1046	1423
4	1053	1425
3	1035	1407
2	1081	1393
1	1057	1377
AVG	1054.4	1405.0
STD	17.05	20.35
Diff		350.6
Spread	46	48
PF	210.9	281.0

 

 

	4/24/2024	4/24/2024
	NMV	1866
250gr	27gr 777	27gr 777
5	988	1245
4	977	1255
3	971	1240
2	970	1251
1	964	1257
AVG	974.0	1249.6
STD	9.08	7.06
Diff		275.6
Spread	24	17
PF	243.5	312.4

 

 

 

 

 

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

Two things 1) 777 is known to be hot loads. Other will most likely chime in on that. 2) what the heck is KOK, SOS and CHN?

[Idaho Gunslinger]

1 minute ago, Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L said:

Two things 1) 777 is known to be hot loads and also corrosive. Other will most likely chime in on that. 2) what the heck is KOK, SOS and CHN?

King of Kaboom, Sultan of Smoke and Champeen of the Hillbilly Nation.

 

Quote

It all stems from the Kentucky State Championship match at Hooten Old Town Regulators. 
 
They have several categories:
 

Champeenship of the Hillbilly Nation (CHN)

Competitors can sign up for the main match in FCD, Duelist, Classic, or other as long as they adhere to FCD equipment and guidelines. All pistols are shot in the SASS Duelist category manner. Double duelist is allowed.

Pistols :
250 or heavier gr. boolits and full 45 LC cases of 777 or Real Black (touching the base of the boolit- no cookies, cards, fiber wads, cereal, caulking rod, or any other fillers).

Rifle :
Rifle caliber must be 38 WCF, 44 WCF, 44 Mag or 45 LC and loaded with 777 or real Black to touch the boolit base (180 gr minimum). No loads broken down.

Shotgun :
Double barrel or '87 shotgun firing a 60 grain powder charge and 1 1/8 oz. shot (both minimums). Any type of BP powder or subs for Shotgun.

***************
Sultan of Smoke (SoS)

Shooters from the SASS BP Match definition of the categories of FCD, Frontiersman, Duelist, Sr. Duelist, Classic Cowboy and Others are eligible. ie One Handed only.
All pistols are shot in the SASS Duelist category manner. Double duelist is allowed, see below for gunfighters.

Pistols and Rifle:

40 cal and up - 200 grain and up - 25 grains of powder and up
38-40 - 180 grain - 30 grains of powder and up
Cap and Bal. 44 cal and up - round ball - 30 grains of powder and up

Powder:
Real Black
Pyrodex
777
APP or Pinnacle and other Black Powder Substitutes ARE allowed

Shotgun:
60 grains of any powder (including APP and Pinnacle) 1 1/8 oz shot
same as CHN
Double barrel and 87
97 is not allowed

******************
King of Kaboom (KoK)

Same rules as SoS, however, two handed or gunfighter shooting is allowed.

 

Notes

Duelist can enter KoK if desired

***************

Additional "side match" categories -- These are from the Indiana Black Powder Guild
Josey Wales
Josey Wales participants will shoot 4 SASS main match revolvers and a double barrel or lever action shotgun. No rifle is required for this category. Revolvers may be shot duelist or gunfighter, 10 shots at the pistol targets and 10 shots at the rifle targets. Gunfighter style may only be utilized from revolvers secured in straight hang holsters from opposite sides of the body, or safely staged on props

******
Pale Rider
Pale Rider consists of main match cartridge pistols and lever action rifle of 40 Caliber and above (38-40 on up). For bullet weights of 200 grs or more, a black powder charge of 25 grs by volume (1.6 cc's) is required. For 38-40, a bullet weight of 180 grs is permitted; however, the black powder charge is increased to a minimum of 30 grs by volume (2.0 cc's). 12 gauge shotgun only; minimum charge is 60 grs (4.0 cc's) and 1 1/8 oz of shot.
Pale Rider is shot gunfighter style, although a duelist category may be offered, depending on the number of entries for the match

.********

 

At Tusco, we use 5 pistols for Josey Wales (Local tradition)
While it was designed as a one-handed category, we allow it to be shot 2 or 1 handed, smokeless or black powder, cartridge or percussion guns.
I frequently shoot it with 5 cap guns -- Too Much Fun!
Since Josey never had anything but pistols, ours is 5 pistols.
You get one shot at each shotgun knockdown.
If there are 4 shotgun, JW shooters load only 4 in their "shotgun" pistol.
If there are 6, load five rounds  and then load the 6th when you first pick up the SG, before you start shooting at the SG targets.
All you have to do is hit the target, it does not have to go down to count.
At our November JW match, we have 5 shotgun targets on each stage, since we have lotsa JW shooters who only shoot it once a year (At the JW match). This avoids confusion among the infrequent JW shooters, and avoids the problem of folks walking around with live rounds in their holstered guns.
 As a stage writer, you just need to think about where the JW shooter will stage & restage the "rifle" pistols and the "Shotgun" pistol.
I also avoid reloads on the clock, since pistol reloads are really confusing and difficult for those who don't do them much.
Feel free to pm me any additional questions
It's a great shooting category to those who have shoulder issues and have difficulty shooting a long gun.
 
While we have a special JW match in November, when we encourage as many as possible to shoot JW, we've made it a regular category for our monthly & annual shoots.  There's typically 3 of us shooting it, Me, Lifer, & Catlow.  We all have shoulder issues.
--Dawg

 

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

Oops it’s Pyrodex that is corrosive not 777 sorry about that.

 

thanks for the info on those items from Kentucky state. 

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

I thought frontier cartridge ammo was exempt from these standards. 

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

Here is some handgun load data from Hodgdon for Triple Seven: https://hodgdonpowderco.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/cowboy-action1-1.pdf.  Cartridges can be loaded below SASS maximum velocities.  APP is a good option to reduce velocities with legal loads.

 

I shot KOK for my first time at Utah State last year.  I thank the Hooten Old Town Regulators for introducing the special, big bore BP categories to SASS.  Here is Shirttail Bess shooting Queen of Kaboom.

 

 

 

 

[Idaho Gunslinger]

24 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

I thought frontier cartridge ammo was exempt from these standards. 

I have unofficially heard this on the forum, but I thought the rules were there for safety reasons so you don't damage targets that can result in ricochets from smaller rounds such as 22LR in particular. I guess I should dig through the handbook.

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

1 hour ago, Idaho Gunslinger said:

I have unofficially heard this on the forum, but I thought the rules were there for safety reasons so you don't damage targets that can result in ricochets from smaller rounds such as 22LR in particular. I guess I should dig through the handbook.

 

A shooter shooting 250gr 45 Colt in a handgun at 850fps (legal) will often be perceived as shooting too hot of ammo and possibly damaging targets

The same shooter shoots the same ammo out of his rifle at 1100-1200 fps at targets a few steps farther out and people usually don't perceive it to be too hot and think it's damaging targets. The targets don't know if they're be hit by shots from revolvers or rifles.

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

59 minutes ago, Idaho Gunslinger said:

I have unofficially heard this on the forum, but I thought the rules were there for safety reasons so you don't damage targets that can result in ricochets from smaller rounds such as 22LR in particular. I guess I should dig through the handbook.

 

Ammo used in SMOKELESS categories is subject to the minimum velocity/power factor standards.
Ammo used in BLACKPOWDER categories must adhere to the "smoke factor" standard.

The maximum velocity standards apply to ALL categories (penalty for violation is a MDQ)

REF: SHB p.25

[Griff]

Max velocities are for all competitors, regardless of propellant.  The only exemption I know of is that BP doesn't have to meet the "power factor", but has to meet the smoke factor...  Dagnabit... the PWB fellar is faster'n me again!!  

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

Ok. I guess the exemption is only about minimum pf and velocity. But what I posted about perceptions of too hot ammo is true for a lot of people.

[Idaho Gunslinger]

40 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

Ok. I guess the exemption is only about minimum pf and velocity. But what I posted about perceptions of too hot ammo is true for a lot of people.

Yeah. If you watched my chronograph videos above it's pretty obvious my pistol loads are hot. The rifle loads likely don't look at hot but the 250gr knocked the target over on the first shot. The 200gr load knocked it over on the 5th shot. 

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

I've knocked over revolver and shotgun targets, left melted/burning wads stuck to shotgun targets and had auto alarms sounding in the parking lot.  CHN, SOS and KOK are warthog categories.  Targets knocked over just prove you have legal, warthog loads.  Use your 250 grain bullets or load 200 grain bullets with APP and you will have legal loads.  (My goal is to register on the local university seismograph and be cited by environmental enforcement personnel for excessive smoke. )

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

I'd like to chime in with:  Per the Manufacturer, 777 is NOT recommended for cartridges.  Your 200Gr ammunition is NOT legal for any SASS sanction3ed category.  Shooting ammunition that "Hot" serves no useful purpose in CAS.  Back splatter is NOT caused strictly by ANY ammunition.  The root cause is Pee Poor target and target stand design.  It's driven by Physics.

 

And If your shooting ammunition that hot in a New Model Vaquero, you're actually flirting with a blown cylinder.

[Sedalia Dave]

The whole idea of these categories is to shoot loads very close to SASS maximum velocities.

 

I'll bet that if you had loaded 25 grains of 777 under the 200 grain bullet vice 30 your loads would likely have been SASS legal. They would have also complied with the rules for Sultan of Smoke (SoS) and King of Kaboom (KoK).

 

I suspect this is why SoS and KoK do not require full cases of powder when shooting lighter bullets.

 

Additionally the clubs that offer these categories use targets that will stand up to these velocities.

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

6 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

I'd like to chime in with:  Per the Manufacturer, 777 is NOT recommended for cartridges.  Your 200Gr ammunition is NOT legal for any SASS sanction3ed category.  Shooting ammunition that "Hot" serves no useful purpose in CAS.  Back splatter is NOT caused strictly by ANY ammunition.  The root cause is Pee Poor target and target stand design.  It's driven by Physics.

 

And If your shooting ammunition that hot in a New Model Vaquero, you're actually flirting with a blown cylinder.

It seems that Hodgdon is sending us a mixed message as it has load data for Triple Seven in cartridges (see https://hodgdonpowderco.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/cowboy-action1-1.pdf).  I agree that the OP's 200-gr ammo is too hot.

[Sedalia Dave]

Sultan of Smoke (SoS) would be a lot of fun shooting my 56-50 Spencer and my ROAs with full chambers of BP.

330 grain bullets over a well compressed load of FFFg hit targets with authority. And yes the velocity is well with SASS maxi,um velocities.

[Sedalia Dave]

4 minutes ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

It seems that Hodgdon is sending us a mixed message as it has load data for Triple Seven in cartridges (see https://hodgdonpowderco.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/cowboy-action1-1.pdf).  I agree that the OP's 200-gr ammo is too hot.

 

777 comes in two versions.

FFFg is for modern muzzle loaders only. Per Hodgdon's Basic Muzzleloader Manual it is NOT recommended for use in cartridges.

FFg can be used in shotguns, cartridges and modern muzzle loaders.

Both versions are not recommended for use in antique firearms not proofed for smokeless powder. 777 should only be used on modern firearms.

 

https://hodgdonreloading.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/2023_MDATA.pdf

 

From the above manual.

 

Quote

• Cartridge loads should be used exactly as listed in this book. Allow no airspace between the base of the bullet and powder. Do not compress powder charges. The use of filler wads, inert fillers or heavy compression may cause a dangerous situation, which could cause injury or death to the shooter or bystanders, or property damage.

 

• Cartridge data with Triple Seven was specifically developed with FFG only.

 

• Do not create loads for cartridges not listed. Contact Hodgdon Powder Company for recommendations concerning other loads.