opinion

[Chicken George*]

I have a serious question related to the original topic. What happened to all the fast 97 shooters at Land Run? A good percentage of the shooters listed in this thread were there and no one had a decent 97 speed event run. The person with the fastest time missed 2 of the 4 targets and made them up. The speed events are included and I know most of the very top shooters shoot them. So did everyone bomb their only try? If no one can get a good time at a match with that many people, something is not right. I really like Land Run, but I do think they could improve the speed events by giving more tries. 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

6 hours ago, Chicken George* said:

The speed events are included and I know most of the very top shooters shoot them.

They do??

 

I think speed events are a waste of time and can negatively impact one's performance on the Main Match... Which is the real reason for going to the competition.

 

Phantom

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Howdy CG.

Here is my opinion... and its just an opinion not based on fact or any poll I've taken.  

 

BUT, before I give my opinion, I will say that some mighty fine and fast 97 shooters have told me in past years that the reason

they don't play the speed events is for the very reason stated by Phantom.

 

Now, for my opinion:

The speed events can be an 'oyimoron', for lack of a better term.

When a speed event, such as for shotgun, has restrictive or binding guidelines, then it really ain't a speed event nor equal for every shooter.

Example: if the SG is staged on a low table and the 6 ft. plus shooter has to start themselves from the timer on the table, both hands on the timer, then it can become a handicap for that taller

shooter.   And if you reverse the situation, tall table/shorter shooter,

it handicaps the shorter shooter and most of the ladies.

 

Telling a shooter to start at Port Arms with both hands touching SG can enhance my shooting style but hinder the over the top shooter just a few .000's of a second.  Red Knee and I both

agree on this.

 

And when events only allow ONE run (the 1st run), it becomes a very disinteresting event to me.   I think Top Shooters enjoy the 'battle' a lot more than savoring a 'lucky' run.

 

Well, that's just my thinking.   That is why I lobby for the 97 speed events allow the shooter to 'start' at their preferred starting position as long as the hand isn't touching shells.

Some shotgunners are best when the SG is staged on a table, some are best when its in hand(s), and some might be best at a port arms position or slight modification of port arms.

 

Someone recently told me that the reason some of the speed shotgun events require staging on the table was because that is the manner in which the Cowboy World Record is set up.

My reply was that the reason its set up that way is because  Lead Dispenser choose it to be that way.   AND, it was probably one of the fastest methods for his 'over the top' technique.

And the 'over the top' loading technique was greatly served when the SG is staged with port up..... and no doubt, very fast.

 

For me, staging on the table, port up or down, is fruitless for me to get a good run.  I have to scoop up the SG from the fore end, which ain't exactly a good method.

Ya gotta ask yeself......... is it a 'speed pickup' event or a 'speed shooting' event..... 

 

Have a good day.   Sorri for being long winded.

 

..........Widder

 

 

[Chicken George*]

1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

They do??

When I say the very top, I'm talking about Missouri Lefty, Deadeye Dillard, Matt Black, Cody James, Deuce Stevens, etc.

2 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

 

I think speed events are a waste of time and can negatively impact one's performance on the Main Match..

They can also improve your performance for the main match. You are shooting the exact targets in a stage set up for the main match. How you shoot them is up to you but it can be good practice and a way to make sure guns and ammo work. Do you shoot the warmups? It can be more warmup but you can focus on a single gun. 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

19 minutes ago, Chicken George* said:

2 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

They do??

When I say the very top, I'm talking about Missouri Lefty, Deadeye Dillard, Matt Black, Cody James, Deuce Stevens, etc

Okay...so...???

 

20 minutes ago, Chicken George* said:

They can also improve your performance for the main match. You are shooting the exact targets in a stage set up for the main match. How you shoot them is up to you but it can be good practice and a way to make sure guns and ammo work. Do you shoot the warmups? It can be more warmup but you can focus on a single gun

Bull.

 

You're not going to shoot the main match like you shoot speed events. 

 

No, I do not shoot warm ups either. If you're not ready for the match without shooting Side Matches or Warm Up... you're not ready for the Main Match.

 

Phantom 

[Chicken George*]

5 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

And when events only allow ONE run (the 1st run), it becomes a very disinteresting event to me.   I think Top Shooters enjoy the 'battle' a lot more than savoring a 'lucky' run.

I love your insight! I've only been to Land Run twice and it's the furthest east match I've been to. Shooters out that way do things a little differently so I was curious. I wasn't sure if it was the way Land Run does their speed events, a lack of interest in speed events in general, like Phantom said (he may not be interested in shooting them, but he's interested in watching them), or maybe even a lack of 97 shooters altogether. A lot of good 97 shooters like Deuce and Santa Fe River Stan have moved to doubles. Didn't Matt Black and Missouri Lefty shoot 97's for a while? I think a lot of people see that and follow. They don't notice the guys like Robyn Davault, Cobra Cat, Sidekick, or even Holy Terror who are right on their tail shooting 97s.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

23 minutes ago, Chicken George* said:

Holy Terror who are right on their tail shooting 97s.

Uh, not quite.

 

And no, I don't watch them... Why would I?

 

Cheers!

Phantom

[Major Crimes]

10 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

 

 

Cheers!

Phantom

Slightly off topic

 

You may have missed this one on the Saloon Phantom but we need your acerbic and inciteful commentary on this topic

 

 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Hey CG,

Another opinion of mine:  Phantom, in his own right, is a darn

good 97 shooter.   So its hard to impress him with someones 97

skills, etc.....     

A feller don't become a category Natl Champ using a 97 unless

there is some real skill in his blood (although most Borgs run

on 10W-30).   

 

..........Widder

 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

1 hour ago, Chicken George* said:

I love your insight! 

 

Thank you kindly.

Deuce and Santa Fe River Stan are 2 of my 97 hero's.

I've competed with both in side matches and can attest

to their abilities, skill and speed.   They both have seem to

master their SG ability with the SxS also.

 

..........Widder

 

[Chicken George*]

1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Phantom, in his own right, is a darn

good 97 shooter.   So its hard to impress him with someones 97

skills, etc.....     

A feller don't become a category Natl Champ using a 97 unless

Yep, and knows his stuff. I always like to hear his opinion. Won 49er I believe (it's engraved on his pistols). He's always been nice to my boys. When he was on our posse at EOT, he complemented Gut C a lot. When Skrap P was just a little guy, Phantom watched him shoot the pistol speed event at Winter Range and was laughing so hard. He was not expecting that kind of speed from such a small shooter. 

[Kirk James]

I've watched Skrao P and Gut C grow up in Cowboy Action shooting.  They are amazing shooters and are going to be a force to contend with.   I"'ve seen Skrap and Hell's Comin go at it with the 97 and Gut C and Cody James hammer it out with their revolvers.  Whether it is good or bad is always a choice for the shooter to decide.  Who is the fastest could change on any given day.  Like any contest, there are always reasons why some do not compete.  We do what is best for our game.  All that have been mentioned should be on the list of the fastest 97 shooters.  Gut C is among the best.

[Texas Jack Black]

 I have also seen many 97 shooters wind up with a locked up  gun as they start to close the action.

Is this a 97 issue or a  limp arm motion when closing ?

 

Best wishes

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Speed this.
Speed that.
Speed the other thing.

These side matches don't interest me. 

Come up with some creative side matches that use different guns, or regular guns in unusual ways.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Basically, even the main matches are Speed pistol, Speed Rifle and

Speed SG.   The usage of a timer dictates how fast everyone performs.....or how slow, depending upon perception.

 

Happy Holidays!

 

..........Widder

 

[Kid Rich]

18 hours ago, Texas Jack Black said:

 I have also seen many 97 shooters wind up with a locked up  gun as they start to close the action.

Is this a 97 issue or a  limp arm motion when closing ?

 

Best wishes

Usually caused by not running yer sg shells thru a shell checker especially AA's. Some of em have a slight bulge just above the brass and will stick in a tite chambered 97. In the case of reloads the crimp may have mushroomed a little.

kR

[Texas Jack Black]

I also noticed that if you close the action even when empty the carrier will at times lock up against the bolt and not allow closure?

[Widder, SASS #59054]

30 minutes ago, Texas Jack Black said:

I also noticed that if you close the action even when empty the carrier will at times lock up against the bolt and not allow closure?

 

TJB,

About anything and everything can go wrong with all of our firearms in the course of a

match.

 

Yes, the 97 has a little reputation based on

failures more so than other SG's, BUT...

when you look at the percentages of 97

used in past years (when that reputation

was more obvious), and when you consider

the age of those 97's (mostly Winchesters of vintage age), and the abuse they were given BEFORE getting used in CAS, you can

understand why that reputation exist.

 

In recent years, when more folks have started using the SxS and the

87, I've started seeing more problems coming from the SxS than

from those using the 97..... atleast in this area.

 

My opinion:  A lot of these SG problems, regardless of type, occur

because the owner tries to do their 'slick up' job theyowndangself.

They buy a cheaper brand of SG and then try to tune it up

to save money.

 

My 97's have withstood YEARS of abuse and are still running great.

Of course, I'm also shooting some of the better models of the IAC,

which are newer built, newer metals, etc.....   BUT, my gunsmith

knows his stuff with the 97, and as Kid Rich stated, my biggest

gremlin in smooth feeding/ejections is from factory ammo.

 

I've seen SxS come apart upon firing.  I've seen the forearms fall off

during firing.  I've even seen RUGER firing pins break during a 

big match down in Georgia a few years back.

 

Before making a determination about a certain firearm we 

use (abuse), look at the percentages of folks using those

guns to help give a better indication of their quality.

And remember, we ABUSE our guns greatly, especially the

97..   For me, I treat my 97's like a rented mule.

 

Happy Holidays TJB

 

..........Widder

 

[Texas Jack Black]

38 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

TJB,

About anything and everything can go wrong with all of our firearms in the course of a

match.

 

Yes, the 97 has a little reputation based on

failures more so than other SG's, BUT...

when you look at the percentages of 97

used in past years (when that reputation

was more obvious), and when you consider

the age of those 97's (mostly Winchesters of vintage age), and the abuse they were given BEFORE getting used in CAS, you can

understand why that reputation exist.

 

In recent years, when more folks have started using the SxS and the

87, I've started seeing more problems coming from the SxS than

from those using the 97..... atleast in this area.

 

My opinion:  A lot of these SG problems, regardless of type, occur

because the owner tries to do their 'slick up' job theyowndangself.

They buy a cheaper brand of SG and then try to tune it up

to save money.

 

My 97's have withstood YEARS of abuse and are still running great.

Of course, I'm also shooting some of the better models of the IAC,

which are newer built, newer metals, etc.....   BUT, my gunsmith

knows his stuff with the 97, and as Kid Rich stated, my biggest

gremlin in smooth feeding/ejections is from factory ammo.

 

I've seen SxS come apart upon firing.  I've seen the forearms fall off

during firing.  I've even seen RUGER firing pins break during a 

big match down in Georgia a few years back.

 

Before making a determination about a certain firearm we 

use (abuse), look at the percentages of folks using those

guns to help give a better indication of their quality.

And remember, we ABUSE our guns greatly, especially the

97..   For me, I treat my 97's like a rented mule.

 

Happy Holidays TJB

 

..........Widder

 

 Thank you, Very well put  I also like your loading method.

 

Best Wishes and HAPPY HOLIDAYS to  you as well.