The continuing saga of my CZ Sharp Tail shotgun

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

First, I have to say I've really been enjoying shooting my 12 ga CZ Sharp Tail SxS shotgun.  Soon after I got it, I polished all of the internals, chamfered the chambers, replaced the lever spring with a much lighter one, and left it cocked in the safe to soften up the hammer springs over time.  I've gotten used to it and I really like shooting it.  Nonetheless, it never opened the way a Longhunter-modified gun opened, and still rebounded partly closed unless I was really careful, because it still had the original hammer springs and cocking rods.  (Actually, a second set of OEM cocking rods after I inadvertently cut the first set way too short.)  Fast forward to a couple of months ago, I found out that Shotgun Boogie made a set of reduced power hammer and sear springs, and a lighter lever spring (which I don't need).  I recently got around to swapping in the SG hammer and sear springs.  The lighter sear springs are great.  But I've run into a major snag -- the reduced power hammer springs cause the very lightest primer strikes that will not detonate a primer.  The problem appears to be with my gun, not Shotgun Boogie's springs, because another SASS pard did the swap and has no light strike issues at all.  I've discussed it with Shotgun Boogie himself and have decided on what I need to do, but I want to see if anyone here has experience or ideas with this gun or my particular problem, and its solution.  So here are series of photos and explanations of what they show.

#1 -- eight shells showing the light primer strikes obtained after installing the lighter hammer springs (there were no successful detonations)

#2 -- although the gun was shooting fine and detonating primers flawlessly with the heavy OEM hammer springs, I wanted to be sure that the lighter springs were at least causing the firing pins to make their full travel forwards.  Photo #2 is the impression made by the firing pins into plumber's putty inserted into the primer cups of a couple of shells.

#3 -- this shows the hammer at its left-most position, with the gun's fore-end removed.  The hammer is pushing the firing pin through and out of the breech face.  The cocking rod (seen at the bottom left side of the hammer) is at its shortest position, just preventing the hammer from contacting the inner wall of the receiver.

#4 -- with the fore-end installed on the barrels, Photo 4 shows the overtravel of the hammer when the gun is broken all the way open.

#5 -- this photo shows the gun's action when the gun is closed and cocked.

#6 -- the last photo in the sequence shows the hammers after the trigger has been pulled and the gun fired.  The hammer cannot travel any further leftward because the cocking rod stops it.  The hammer has to hit the firing pin hard enough to send it traveling the rest of its way to the primer, which is actually even further leftward than the firing pin is sitting in Photo #3.  Shotgun Boogie says that the gap on the left side of the hammer, where you can see the firing pin, does not look right.  Since these cocking rods were replacements, maybe it is possible that they required some fitting (that is, length adjustment to the particular gun) in order to reduce that gap, which I never did.  I don't know.

 

To be honest, the only thing I can think of doing at this point is shortening the cocking rods.  The hammer over-travel serves no function; the rods need to be only long enough to make sure that the hammer notch moves far enough to the right to be engaged by the sear. 

 

I initially thought that the cocking rods also need to be long enough to prevent the firing pins from extending out from the breech face at all after the gun has been fired.  But do I really care about this?  In order to both load and unload shells, the gun must first be opened -- cocking it in the process -- so the hammers will never be pressing on the firing pins in those conditions.

 

Also, it seems to me that I don't really care if the hammer contacts the inside wall of the receiver when I remove the fore-end and barrel; that is not a "impact" contact situation.

 

All thoughts and comments are invited and welcomed.

ND

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Remove the cocking rods, and see if primed hulls will pop.

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

Howdy ND

first are those your reloads or factory rounds? If factory try a different brand with a flat topped primer. 

if they are yours those primers look like federal 209 with their domed tops. I would find some flat primers like Remington 209 or others. 
years past I got intermittent FTF with the domed primers in a stoeger supreme and a SKB 200. Switched to a flat topped primer and problem went away. Other guns ran them okay, including a different stoeger a bss and my backup SKB. 
no idea why the issue with the domed primers but that was all i changed to resolve the issue. 
YMMV
Regards

    
Gateway Kid

[Captain Bill Burt]

28 minutes ago, Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life said:

Howdy ND

first are those your reloads or factory rounds? If factory try a different brand with a flat topped primer. 

if they are yours those primers look like federal 209 with their domed tops. I would find some flat primers like Remington 209 or others. 
years past I got intermittent FTF with the domed primers in a stoeger supreme and a SKB 200. Switched to a flat topped primer and problem went away. Other guns ran them okay, including a different stoeger a bss and my backup SKB. 
no idea why the issue with the domed primers but that was all i changed to resolve the issue. 
YMMV
Regards

    
Gateway Kid

Domes have compressive strength. As you exert pressure on a dome (up to a point) it becomes stronger. This isn’t true of a flat surface. That’s why the Hoover dam is curved inward toward the reservoir. I’m ‘guessing’ that’s why a curved primer might be stronger than a flat one.

 

Just a guess I’m not an engineer nor have I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express lately, just a guy who reads boring stuff occasionally, in this case I got interested in the Hoover dam a while back.

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

Says Shotgun Boogie: "Keep in mind, especially in those guns EVERY new spare part need to be fitted in!"

 

It has nothing to do with the type of primers.  Federal 209s have been firing just fine in my reloads for the longest while; that's all I use since I still have maybe 8,000 of them.  (I did, however, recently pick up the Ultimate Primer Punch for my MEC 9000GN to condition the primer pockets.)

 

With the cocking rods removed, it seems likely to me that the firing pins would actually puncture the primers, in addition to setting them off.  But removing the cocking rods and then firing the gun is a bit of an ordeal, since they are required to cock the gun if the buttstock is mounted to the receiver (and I cannot just cock the hammers by pulling back on them directly).  So to test that theory, I would need to: (1) cock the gun, (2) remove the fore-end; (3) separate the barrels from the receiver; (3) remove the pins holding the cocking rod forcing levers from the receiver; (4) remove the cocking rods; (5) reconnect the barrels to the receiver; (6) replace the fore-end; (7) load shells into the chambers; and (8) pull the trigger twice to fire both shells.  I could do it, though. 

 

I suppose that would confirm or negate the notion that it is the the cocking rod length that is the problem.  So, maybe it is worth the effort.

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

I think my error was assuming that the replacement cocking rods were "drop in" parts when, in reality, they were too long from the start and needed to be trimmed some to properly fit my shotgun.  That makes a lot of sense, to be honest.  Huglu probably makes the cocking rods the longest that any gun could possibly need, if all manufacturing tolerances went in the same direction.  In practice, of course, they do not, so shorter is needed.  And there seems to be a logical way to trim them: trim until the face of the hammer is flush with the rear face of the firing pin -- and mine is not close, as is seen in Photo #6.  I'm going to trim 1/1000 of an inch at a time until I get there, I think.  Wish me luck.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Go .010 increments 

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

1 minute ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Go .010 increments 

That's where I got in trouble the first time.  0.010" at the rod makes a much larger difference at the sear due to extremely leveraged position of where the rod drives the hammer.  I can afford to go in thousandths to watch the difference evolve.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Watch and be aware of the hammer notch location to the sear, when cocking as you shorten the rods.

[Pb Mark]

Own one of Longhunter's.  Stock Longhunter plus a full internal parts safety delete.  Never needed to do maintenance work on it yet.

 

Proper fit cocking rods, yes, understand that. 

 

I saved these pictures and am curious to compare the cams on the hammers to see if they appear shaped exactly the same as yours.

 

 

 

[Tennessee River]

I know we all think we can smith through the problems of our own guns, but if you reach a point of frustration an easy solution is to send it to Ken Griner at Griner Gunworks. I have one of his Sharptails with his custom made hammer struts. He knows them well. 

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

10 hours ago, Pb Mark said:

Own one of Longhunter's.  Stock Longhunter plus a full internal parts safety delete.  Never needed to do maintenance work on it yet.

 

Proper fit cocking rods, yes, understand that. 

 

I saved these pictures and am curious to compare the cams on the hammers to see if they appear shaped exactly the same as yours.

 

 

 

Yes, that would be very interesting to know -- has Huglu changed the profile of the camming surfaces at all?

 

The safety delete is also a trivially simple modification but that safety has never caused me any trouble and I'm a believer in the adage "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

2 hours ago, Tennessee River said:

I know we all think we can smith through the problems of our own guns, but if you reach a point of frustration an easy solution is to send it to Ken Griner at Griner Gunworks. I have one of his Sharptails with his custom made hammer struts. He knows them well. 

The maddening thing is that this gun doesn't have the complexities of a fine English sidelock -- or even a fine English boxlock, for that matter.  The mechanism is almost trivially simple.  I should be able to fix it now that I've reached the realization that the replacement cocking rods were never right (because I didn't fit them to the action), but the gun fired anyway because the original springs are so heavy that they overcame the large distance that they needed to send the firing pins flying forward.  As Shotgun Boogie implies, these Turkish guns are manufactured with wide tolerances and are then forced to work by fitting when they are assembled; I just need to fit the cocking rods to this gun's particular dimensions.

 

But if I fail, yes, there's always Ken Griner's magic now that Longhunter has stopped working on these Sharp Tails.  One thing I'm NOT doing (again) is putting the original heavy springs back into the gun.

[Texas Maverick]

8 hours ago, Tennessee River said:

I know we all think we can smith through the problems of our own guns, but if you reach a point of frustration an easy solution is to send it to Ken Griner at Griner Gunworks. I have one of his Sharptails with his custom made hammer struts. He knows them well. 

I totally agree, I had one that he tuned for me and then I bought another one of his tuned shotguns. They both have been great and reliable.

 

TM

[Pb Mark]

If mine ever comes apart again for any reason, this upgrade gets installed.

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

Today I made up a pair of dummy cocking rods from 3/16 round stock and, starting from the existing length of the actual rods, I ground them shorter in 0.005" steps until they were the correct length to allow the hammers their full travel without smacking the inside wall of the receiver.  Turns out my "unfitted" rods were 0.035" too long.  I then ground the actual rods to match the dummy set and voila, the gun appears to function flawlessly with good solid protrusion of the firing pins from the breech face.  I'll test my work at the range tomorrow, but I have every reason to believe that Shotgun Boogie's lighter hammer springs will easily set off my shells now.  In the process and as a result, I also significantly reduced the over-travel of the hammers past their cocked position.  That ought to help with opening and keeping open the gun when shooting it.  This has been a good learning experience for me -- particularly about replacement parts and the need to fit them to the gun, something the Longhunters and Ken Griners of the world learned a long time ago.

 

And here is what it looks like now after the trigger has been pulled.  The hammers are no longer stopped a good distance from the end of their intended travel.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Good job 

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

Ta-da.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

3 hours ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

Ta-da.

How many rnds?

Any hold open issues?

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

I ran 23 rounds of mixed ammo, some homebrewed cowboy strength, some homebrewed trap practice loads, and a couple of Winchester AA Supersport Sporting Clays shells for fun (well, less fun with this gun).  No issues whatsoever.  I can now break open, shuck empties, and close the gun without using my left hand at all.  Almost no bounce-back at fully open -- not zero, but as long as I don't flick my wrist again, the barrels hang fully open.  Unlike anything I've experienced to date with this gun.  

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

Took the improved Sharp Tail to its first match today.  It is so much easier to use that it tempted me to go much faster than I'm used to going with the shotgun.  Now, I need to find and install that automatic aiming thingamadoodle so I won't miss the KDs.  (I missed a KD three times ... and I don't remember when I previously missed one, before today.) 

[Texas Maverick]

On 7/11/2023 at 7:37 AM, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

Yes, that would be very interesting to know -- has Huglu changed the profile of the camming surfaces at all?

 

The safety delete is also a trivially simple modification but that safety has never caused me any trouble and I'm a believer in the adage "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

My Sharptail had a bad safety spring and allowed the safety to reset to safe mode after breaking it open. Ken Griner made me a new stiffer spring and I added it and have never had any more problems with it.

 

TM

[Texas Maverick]

1 hour ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

Took the improved Sharp Tail to its first match today.  It is so much easier to use that it tempted me to go much faster than I'm used to going with the shotgun.  Now, I need to find and install that automatic aiming thingamadoodle so I won't miss the KDs.  (I missed a KD three times ... and I don't remember when I previously missed one, before today.) 

That feature will cost you more than the original price of the shotgun. LOL

 

TM

[Northstar]

Hi Nostrum Damus, I've been toying with the idea that you had in the beginning about carefully shortening the cocking rods for an easier cocking action and staying open. After reading your detailed post on it, I'm 100% certain I don't want to modify the original rods, and just fabricate new ones from scratch in case I make a mistake. 

 

I did have one question about removing the cocking rods themselves. Do you remove them by removing the pins at the cocking arms, and is there anything in particular I should watch out for when attempting to remove the rods? There is an unusual lack of documentation and parts on this gun, and I've gathered the most info on this gun just from your experiences you've posted here, so I really appreciate that you posted your findings.

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

That's one way to go about it, but I think you'll find shortening the original rods a whole lot simpler than making new ones from scratch.  To make new rods, you will need to precisely drill a hole in the rod to receive the post of the return spring plunger at the rod's front end; I'd be concerned about getting the placement of that hole EXACTLY right, because if it isn't, the cocking rod might bind.  But if you have a good drill press or milling machine at your disposal, this would be simple; I have neither.  But there is a fairly straightforward way to shorten the original rods by first using a pair of dummy rods to better see how much shortening you are going to need to do, so here is the procedure that I worked up and followed.  In addition to the tools you need to disassemble the gun, you will also need a decent precision caliper and some tool to grind the REAR ends of the dummy rods and then, once you know the length you are shooting for, the original cocking rods.  I used my WORK SHARP Knife and Tool Sharpener with the red belt to do the grinding, and it worked perfectly -- not too fast and not too slow.  Here is the step-by-step procedure, and even though it seems complicated, it really is not:

1. Remove the buttstock (this is simple but you need a long ratchet extension to reach the bolt inside with your 13mm (? 12mm?  13, I think) socket).  To do this, carefully remove the factory rubber butt-pad with a regular Philips screwdriver through the two small holes in the pad.  Remove the stock-retaining bolt -- it can be very tight.  Then VERY CAREFULLY remove the side plates with the correct hollow-ground flathead screwdriver, and keep straight which screw comes out of which hole, as they are all indexed.  Once the side plates and bolt are removed, VERY CAREFULLY remove the screw in the trigger guard tang using the same correct hollow-ground flathead screwdriver.  The butt stock now comes off of the receiver easily with a light rearward rubber mallet tap on the pistol grip.

2. You now can operate the gun and watch what's going on.  Do it.  See how much overtravel your hammers have, beyond where they need to go to be engaged by the sears -- all of that overtravel is unnecessary.  However, also notice in particular the gap between the inside wall of the receiver and the faces of the hammers after you pull the trigger (twice).  You are going to want to shorten the rods to the point where the hammers, after firing, are ALMOST BUT NOT ACTUALLY touching that inside wall of the receiver.  To my way of thinking, this serves as a lower limit on how much you'll want to shorten the rods.  (Truth be told, I don't know if there's actually any harm in making the rods shorter, and having the hammers strike the inside wall of the receiver -- it just seems like a bad idea to me; on the other hand, it would make the gun even easier to open; someday I might experiment with dummy rods ground to their absolute shortest functional length to see what happens.)

3. Due to the position of the camming surfaces at the bottom of the hammers, VERY TINY differences in cocking rod length are greatly multiplied in hammer travel distance at the tops of the hammers -- in other words, it will be very easy to screw up and shorten the rods too much, to the point where the grooves in the top surface of the hammers will not get caught by the sears -- that is, the gun will not cock at all -- if you are not careful.

4.  Initially I thought I would proceed in to shorten the rods one mil (0.001") at a time.  That was a fool's errand.  I decided that it would be sufficient to proceed in five mil steps.

5. Remove the cocking rods, keeping straight which is the left and which is the right side rod.  You do this by pushing out the two small pins, from inside to out, in the front of the water table; a curved pick is all you need for this task -- push and they will protrude outwardly just a bit -- and just pull them out with tiny pliers -- they come out easily.  The cocking cams or wedges, the rods, and the return springs and plungers all come straight out.  Make sure your cocking wedges and return springs/plungers and retaining pins holding those parts into the front end of the water table are kept apart and identified as left and right side.  While you're at it and you've gone this far, polish all of those parts, and polish the channels in which the cocking rods slide back and forth.

6. Before actually trimming the rods, I first measured them with my caliper and wrote down the lengths -- they were identical.  I then made dummy rods from 3/16" round stock, grinding them to be EXACTLY the same length as the originals, testing the dummy rods (without the return spring/plunger) by reassembling cocking rods and wedges to the receiver and then the barrels to the receiver, making sure that everything appeared to work the same way with the dummy rods installed as it did with the original rods.  You are going to be disassembling and then reassembling all of these parts over and over again after each incremental grinding step -- just get used to it.

7. I again disassembled the barrels and removed the dummy cocking rods.  And then I used my WORK SHARP Knife and Tool Sharpener -- a glorified belt grinder -- with the red belt (P220 Medium ceramic oxide) to start shortening ONE dummy rod.  I kept the face of the rod square by rotating it on its axis while grinding, and then just slightly beveled the sharp edge each incremental 0.005" step.  I got the hang of how long and how much pressure to use pretty quickly.  And it didn't matter if I screwed it up because I was working on a dummy rod.  A 36" zinc-plated 3/16" dia. steel rod costs about five bucks at Home Depot.

8. After each shortening grind, I reassembled the whole thing with the shortened dummy rod and operated the action to see the effect of what I had just done.  With each step of the process, the hammer (after firing) got closer and closer to the inside wall of the receiver.  I would then disassemble and repeat the process.

9. When I was happy with the rod length on the left side, I tried that same dummy rod on the right side and -- lo and behold -- it was also where I wanted it to be on the right side.  I had removed 35 mils from the starting point by then: 7 increments, 7 times disassembling and reassembling everything.  I got pretty good and fast at that disassembly/reassembly.

10. I then ground both REAL cocking rods to the desired length.  I got them within a mil of my target length.

11. I reassembled everything and tested the gun's operation again, and loved what I saw.  And then I proved up the whole thing at the range -- I can open, shuck, and close the gun using only my right hand.  Pretty awesome result.  In testing, I fired 23 shells, a variety of stuff from cowboy loads to sporting clays high speed shells, without a single issue or malfunction.  I then shot an actual match with the gun; it was like shooting a different gun than the one I used before this job.

 

I've previously chamfered the chamber mouths using a cone-shaped grinding pin on my Dremel tool, as well as removing the upper "ears" of the ejector.  That's also a simple job, relatively speaking, and makes a big difference (at least to me) in reducing fumbling when loading shells.  I've also previously polished all moving metal-to-metal surfaces.

 

I've re-read this a couple of times and I think I've included all of the steps that I did but since I wasn't writing it down at the time, I cannot be 100% certain.  I am as sure as I can be, though.  AND I DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY FOR WHATEVER MESSING AROUND ANYONE DOES TO THEIR FROM-THE-FACTORY-PERFECTLY-GOOD-AND-FUNCTIONAL shotguns.  This is just what I did; do with this information whatever you like, at your own risk.

 

ND

 

 

 

 

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

And of course Shotgun Boogie's new lighter hammer and sear springs make a big difference, too.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Did you take any pictures, while you did this work?

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

3 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Did you take any pictures, while you did this work?

Now THAT would have been a good idea, right?  Or maybe I could have made a YouTube and started my own channel called "Hey CZ-USA are you listening?" or something like that, and then become a famous Influencer, whatever that means.

[Northstar]

Oh man, that is exactly the kind of info I was looking for! I appreciate that you took the time to write all of that out. It makes sense every step of the way in your process.

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

2 minutes ago, Northstar said:

Oh man, that is exactly the kind of info I was looking for! I appreciate that you took the time to write all of that out. It makes sense every step of the way in your process.

Truth be told, I've had running private conversations with a couple of pards about this project, both mine and theirs.  So I already had a version of the step-by-step written up.  Some folks find the notion of taking their guns apart too scary; I feel that way only about the action of my Winchester 1897 pump gun -- and I'm only scared to do it AGAIN -- I did it once and it was a nightmare, even with good instructions and a YouTube to watch.  The number of super-tiny parts in there is ABSURD.  But this CZ Sharp Tail -- it is about as simple to work on as a gun can get.

[Texas Maverick]

20 hours ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

Now THAT would have been a good idea, right?  Or maybe I could have made a YouTube and started my own channel called "Hey CZ-USA are you listening?" or something like that, and then become a famous Influencer, whatever that means.

You would be like Abilene then. LOL

 

TM

[Texas Maverick]

19 hours ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

Truth be told, I've had running private conversations with a couple of pards about this project, both mine and theirs.  So I already had a version of the step-by-step written up.  Some folks find the notion of taking their guns apart too scary; I feel that way only about the action of my Winchester 1897 pump gun -- and I'm only scared to do it AGAIN -- I did it once and it was a nightmare, even with good instructions and a YouTube to watch.  The number of super-tiny parts in there is ABSURD.  But this CZ Sharp Tail -- it is about as simple to work on as a gun can get.

i am not as scared with the CZ or the 73 but the NMV and all their little parts and the order to do the disassemble and reassembly are scary.

 

TM

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

I've not had any problems working on my NMVs.  I recently completely disassembled and reassembled my 1912 Iver Johnson .32 S&W Safety Automatic Hammerless and that was especially tricky because I couldn't budge the teeny tiny oh-so-small pin that retains the small top cover of the frame, and thus had to do the reassembly "blind."  That was entertaining.  The '73, '66, even my '92, those are all straightforward as well, in my opinion.

 

When I work on the small parts of a gun, I keep an exploded parts diagram on the bench and another blank sheet of paper.  I use blue contractor's tape to tape each part to the blank sheet of paper in the order in which I removed it, and I label it with the part number from the exploded parts diagram.  That definitely helps when reassembling.  Numrich has an exploded parts diagram for just about every gun imaginable, in my experience.  But not for the CZ Sharp Tail.

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

On my list of upcoming projects is the partial disassembly of an original 1874-75 Schofield, for which there are detailed total disassembly and reassembly instructions around, and that one is complicated, too.  It is in the early serial number range and is US marked.  It is in great condition.  But ... I believe it is an actual Wells Fargo gun, surplused by the US Army when the complete changeover to the Colt Single Action Army occurred.  It has a number of the hallmarks of a Express gun -- including being defaced in an effort to remove the "W.F.& CO. EX." stamping on the frame, which was almost completely successful.  That was done to some guns by Wells Fargo, American Express and others in the early 20th century when they themselves sold off the guns, the .45 Schofield cartridge having long since gone obsolete.  There are clues that would confirm (or disprove) my suspicion about the gun's history, but they are visible only on the inside of the gun.  But my friend -- its owner -- is dead set on leveraging my desire to disassemble her gun in every way she can think of, and she seems to never run out of new ways to coerce me into doing stuff for her.  Call me persistent and stubborn, and probably stupid.  Some day I will fondle her gun again; I can dream, anyway.

[Oak Ridge Regulator]

I have a question, I have the same gun and have done some work on it to smooth it up, if I shorten my rods to the point your photo shows my firing pin is actually now sticking out into the barrel chamber once the gun is fired and I believe it would drag for at least a short period as the barrel was opened, did you try clay in your primer pockets of a couple of shells to see if your firing pins were fully retracted ? I’m sure there’s a lot of difference in these guns that’s why I’m asking