Best way to solve this Ubertu Competition Rifle sight problem?

[Crooked River Pete, SASS 43485]

Plug in your numbers in this online calculator, it will tell you how tall a front sight you need.

 

https://dawsonprecision.com/sight-calculator/

[Eyesa Horg]

1 hour ago, Mysterious Stranger said:

 

Thanks, Pettifogger! Now that I know what the retailers call them, I can check Canada as well as these two places. If one of the places has them in stock, I can ask about whether they will ship to Canada or not. Sometimes, even the ones who normally won't, will do it if you ask nicely. That is how I got the slip-on SureHot sight sleeves sent to me. They normally do not ship to Canada, but I offered to pay them any extra they needed to cover the extra postage and other costs.

 

And, it looks like the description for these says that you simply "tap them on" over the entire sight body, and they supposedly fit the 1866, the 1873, and also the Marlin rifles. That sounds about as simple as it gets! 

I have one on my Marlin and it makes picking up  the front bead easy. They do just tap on, making the install easy. 

Probably be good to ask a US supplier to use a Personal name in the return address instead of the gun shops. Just to keep curious Mounties at bay. Good Luck on your projects.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Outpost's order form will only accept U.S. addresses. Longhunt will accept non-USA addresses, but gave me a "can't find a shipping method" message asking me to contact them for assistance, so I did. I'll see if I get a reply. In the meantime, I'll look in Canada and The USA via Google. 

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Before you order the slip on bead post a good CLEAR closeup photo of your exisitng front sight.  No use wasteing money if it will not fit your front sight.  The slip on is for Marbles or Marbles style sights.

[Mysterious Stranger]

2 hours ago, Crooked River Pete, SASS 43485 said:

Plug in your numbers in this online calculator, it will tell you how tall a front sight you need.

 

https://dawsonprecision.com/sight-calculator/

 

Thank-you, Crooked River Pete. I have bookmarked that URL so I have it handy.

[Mysterious Stranger]

1 hour ago, Eyesa Horg said:

I have one on my Marlin and it makes picking up  the front bead easy. They do just tap on, making the install easy. 

Probably be good to ask a US supplier to use a Personal name in the return address instead of the gun shops. Just to keep curious Mounties at bay. Good Luck on your projects.

 

Thanks, Eyesa! Now that I have a testimonial on how easily it mounts, I like this solution even more.  Another thing I like about it is that I can then use an appropriate diameter of round needle file to file out a semicircle in the rear sight that will surround that big bead with just the right circle of light. AND the slight increase in height of the front sight would lower the POI which would get me  at least closer to POA, and filing the semicircle lower on the rear sight would get me to POA almost for sure.

[Mysterious Stranger]

1 hour ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Before you order the slip on bead post a good CLEAR closeup photo of your exisitng front sight.  No use wasteing money if it will not fit your front sight.  The slip on is for Marbles or Marbles style sights.

 

Here's that close-up photo of the front sight, Pettifogger:

 

 

Pardon the cat hair and the oily cleaning rag fuzz around the base. 

 

I sent an email to SureHit Sights directly as well. Shannon there was the one who got my handgun slip-on front sight sleeves mailed to me. I asked her if the rifle slip-on would fit my Uberti Competition rifle, and if so, could I order from them again.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Not a standard Uberti factory sight, or a Marble or one from Manatee.  With that big bead, it's definitely a cowboy intended sight.   Did that rifle come new with that heavy, big bead front sight?  I'd guess the slip on cover would not fit well over that....

 

good luck, GJ

[Ripsaw]

I've replaced the front sights with taller sights on all my competition '73s.  My sight picture is bead centered in the the middle of the buckhorn, not down in the notch.  My pistols are sighted with the front blade above the rear notch.  

[Mysterious Stranger]

50 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Not a standard Uberti factory sight, or a Marble or one from Manatee.  With that big bead, it's definitely a cowboy intended sight.   Did that rifle come new with that heavy, big bead front sight?  I'd guess the slip on cover would not fit well over that....

 

good luck, GJ

 

The bead is actually about 3/32" as I pointed out earlier, so not really that big. And yes, that's the sight it cam with from the factory. So you think the SureHit slip-on will not fit over it. If Surehit agrees, I Guess the only solution is an entire new front sight that fits into that dovetail.

[Mysterious Stranger]

23 minutes ago, Ripsaw said:

I've replaced the front sights with taller sights on all my competition '73s.  My sight picture is bead centered in the the middle of the buckhorn, not down in the notch.  My pistols are sighted with the front blade above the rear notch.  

 

Yes, my temporary "solution" with my handguns has been to hold the front sight high, but that really slows down getting the handgun on target. My eyes find it much easier and faster to align the front and rear sight using clearly visible borders or stops, not ones that require estimating how much above or below.

 

It looks like I'll need to either learn how to drift front sights out and in, or if not confident that I can do it without damaging or disfiguring the rifle, paying a gunsmith to do it.

[Purgatory]

16 hours ago, Mysterious Stranger said:

 

Problem NOT solved. That would work with the rifle, but NOT with the revolvers, which shoot way LOW. I don't want to have to ask myself on each shot string, "What is the windage and elevation error on THIS specific firearm?." In a fast paced shooting sport like CAS, you don't have time to waste on stuff like that.

There are really no calculations. Bottom edge rifle, top edge revolver. A 3/4" horizontal is not worth worrying about. However, if you're going for absolute top speed and precision, you're right- your equipment has to work the way you want- but it's gonna cost. Full disclosure- I grew up rifle target shooting, including using a peep and post with a six o'clock hold, so edge holds are not a problem for me. I think all of the suggestions have merit and give you a lot to play with while figuring out what's most comfortable for you. Best of luck!

[Mysterious Stranger]

8 minutes ago, Purgatory said:

There are really no calculations. Bottom edge rifle, top edge revolver. A 3/4" horizontal is not worth worrying about. However, if you're going for absolute top speed and precision, you're right- your equipment has to work the way you want- but it's gonna cost. Full disclosure- I grew up rifle target shooting, including using a peep and post with a six o'clock hold, so edge holds are not a problem for me. I think all of the suggestions have merit and give you a lot to play with while figuring out what's most comfortable for you. Best of luck!

 

Yes, I agree the replies have been very helpful in giving me possible ways to go to get POI closer to POA.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

That is the stock uberti front sight that has been modified for a bead.  The slip on will not fit that sight.

[Mysterious Stranger]

9 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

That is the stock uberti front sight that has been modified for a bead.  The slip on will not fit that sight.

 

That's too bad. Would have been such an easy solution to the visibility issue and coupled with a semi-circular filing of the rear slot, would have also addressed the elevation issue.

[Eyesa Horg]

Another thing I've seen done is to take a brass primer cup and epoxy it over the existing bead. If done carefully, doesn't look horrible.

[Mysterious Stranger]

I realized that High Spade's suggestion to remove the rear sight step height adjusting ramp from the sight MIGHT actually reduce the height of the aiming slit in the sight more than I thought despite the leaf looking like it is already pretty close to resting on the top of the barrel.

 

I did the math again and realized that a 3" high POI versus POA at 25 yards (900 inches) requires just a 3/900 x 17.5" = .058" drop in the rear sight to correct it entirely. That is just under 1/16 inch. There is not that much of a gap between the sight leaf and the top of the barrel, but there is at least a BIT of a gap. So, I removed the step height adjusting ramp from the sight, and will see at the range how much of the elevation error it removes!

 

I also found the correct screwdriver in my firearms screwdriver set that fits perfectly in the slot of the screw that helps secure the sight in its dovetail. Now I just need to get a BRASS punch to very slightly drift the rear sight base rightward in the dovetail. To completely eliminate the modest 3/4" left windage it is consistently causing, I just need to be careful to drift it only 0.75/900 x 17.5 = .015 inch. That's a REALLY small adjustment to make by eye. But a piece of masking tape placed on the right side of the dovetail, with a .015" feeler gage between it and the sight base, might be "close enough". 

[Mysterious Stranger]

14 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Another thing I've seen done is to take a brass primer cup and epoxy it over the existing bead. If done carefully, doesn't look horrible.

 

Eyesa:

 

1. How do you safely get the primer anvil out of the primer cup?

 

2. My Federal primers all have a nickel finish. What primer brand (that is actually available these days!) has a brass cup?

 

3. Would the cup from a LARGE primer be overkill, or "just right" for CAS?

 

Or, is brass tubing available anywhere with an ID of about 3/32" ? If so, that could be tapped onto the OEM sight bead from the rear to make the oEM bead larger.

 

 

[Eyesa Horg]

2 minutes ago, Mysterious Stranger said:

 

Eyesa:

 

1. How do you safely get the primer anvil out of the primer cup?

 

2. My Federal primers all have a nickel finish. What primer brand (that is actually available these days!) has a brass cup?

 

3. Would the cup from a LARGE primer be overkill, or "just right" for CAS?

 

Or, is brass tubing available anywhere with an ID of about 3/32" ? If so, that could be tapped onto the OEM sight bead from the rear to make the oEM bead larger.

 

 

Winchesters are brass color. The ones I've seen appeared to have been fired and the dent tapped back out with a punch. I suppose if the firing pin hit was centered, it wouldn't look bad dented. Might be at least a good temporarily option until you find something more to your liking. The sight on my Marlin is about the size of a large primer. Maybe somebody will chime in, I wonder if you soaked a live one in oil if you could pick it apart. Don't know, might be tricky for sure. Here, hold my beer!!

[Mysterious Stranger]

25 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Winchesters are brass color. The ones I've seen appeared to have been fired and the dent tapped back out with a punch. I suppose if the firing pin hit was centered, it wouldn't look bad dented. Might be at least a good temporarily option until you find something more to your liking. The sight on my Marlin is about the size of a large primer. Maybe somebody will chime in, I wonder if you soaked a live one in oil if you could pick it apart. Don't know, might be tricky for sure. Here, hold my beer!!

 

I've got a friend who has a LOT of firearms supplies. I'll ask him if he has any large Winchester primers. FIRED ones 

[Mysterious Stranger]

My friend DOES have fired large Winchester primers! He is mailing me 4 of them so I can make a couple of bad install attempts before getting it right!

[Eyesa Horg]

Your original sight looks pretty good sized. You may find it to be ok as is. Set up some targets and run it fast to see how it goes without modification.

[Mysterious Stranger]

2 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Your original sight looks pretty good sized. You may find it to be ok as is. Set up some targets and run it fast to see how it goes without modification.

 

I have done that, and bigger would help. Despite its appearance in the photo I took, it is actually only 3/32" diameter (i.e bigger than 1/16" but less than 1/8"). And, the distance between the front sight and rear sight is about 17.5 inches, and then there is the distance from that rear sight leaf to my eye which probably more than doubles that distance.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Ok, I have a proper set of 1/16" to 5/16" diameter brass punches and the right match size of hammer, and a set of several needle files in different sizes and shapes, coming to me in 2 days. Once I loosen the securing screw in the rear sight dovetail mount, can I safely just tap the mount a little at a time to shift it sideways?

[Mysterious Stranger]

After filing the rear sight edges to the shape I want, what do I do to restore a finish to the raw steel exposed by the filing?

[Eyesa Horg]

12 minutes ago, Mysterious Stranger said:

After filing the rear sight edges to the shape I want, what do I do to restore a finish to the raw steel exposed by the filing?

Not necessarily the best, but try a Birchwood Casey bluing pen. It's like a sharpie. Or use a sharpie. I use a sharpie to fill in the rear sight on my Rugers. You'll need to touch it up regularly, but it only takes 3.6 seconds.

[Pb Mark]

Here is a Canadian SASS Gunsmith available closer to you.  Might just pass your cowboy gun needs off to him.  Just a suggestion.

 

Contact Information

Rusty Wood Trading Co.
0096709 B.C. LTD.

Proprietor: Peter Riedel
a.k.a. Rusty Wood SASS #50427 Life Member & SASS Regulator

[Mysterious Stranger]

11 minutes ago, Pb Mark said:

Here is a Canadian SASS Gunsmith available closer to you.  Might just pass your cowboy gun needs off to him.  Just a suggestion.

 

Contact Information

Rusty Wood Trading Co.
0096709 B.C. LTD.

Proprietor: Peter Riedel
a.k.a. Rusty Wood SASS #50427 Life Member & SASS Regulator

 

Thanks for pointing out that Rusty Wood Trading provides gunsmithing services. I am currently buying cast bullets from them, but did not know they also provide gunsmithing services. However, they are in The Province of British Columbia, versus Province of Alberta where I am located. I would need to ship firearms back and forth to use their services, and under Canadian law (particularly with "Restricted" firearms like any handgun) and with the glacial performance, and cost, of Canada Post, this would not be a first choice. To give you some idea of Canadian law, to move a "Restricted" firearm between anywhere different than your home and the gun club of which you must be a member, requires a transport permit from The Chief Firearms Officer of the Province to be pre-arranged.

 

I'm going to try to stay local, especially since other than the sight-related issues on both the rifle and the revolvers, and the trigger pull weight on the rifle, I have no other gunsmithing needs, and those sight issues and trigger weight reduction require "generic" gunsmithing skills versus CAS-specific ones. Thank goodness, because here in Canada the legal ability to get ANYTHING firearm-related is nowhere near as easy as in The U.S. The provincial government here in Alberta is doing its best to fight the federal government's intense anti-gun measures, but it is "fighting city hall" in doing so.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

I will absolutely guarantee you will hate using a Winchester large primer for a front sight.  It is .210 in diameter and at SASS distances will cover most if not all of the target.  A small primer is .177.  For where you are right now I would just use the front sight that came with the rifle.  Remove the rear sight and take your round needle file and open the notch.  I would not even try to make the sight into a flat top.  Most of the Uberti sights are HARD and given what you have posted it will come out looking like crap.  Simply file the notch and reinstall the rear sight.  That is all you need for cowboy shooting.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

I used a Winchester large primer for a front sight on one of my carbines for a few years before it got knocked off.  It worked fine for CAS.  So I guess it's a YMMV.

[Mysterious Stranger]

1 hour ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

I will absolutely guarantee you will hate using a Winchester large primer for a front sight.  It is .210 in diameter and at SASS distances will cover most if not all of the target.  A small primer is .177.  For where you are right now I would just use the front sight that came with the rifle.  Remove the rear sight and take your round needle file and open the notch.  I would not even try to make the sight into a flat top.  Most of the Uberti sights are HARD and given what you have posted it will come out looking like crap.  Simply file the notch and reinstall the rear sight.  That is all you need for cowboy shooting.

 

I'll try opening up the notch only first. If that helps enough, I'll stop there. If not, I'll try just test fitting  a small primer (about 1.9 times the size of the OEM bead) and then a large primer ((2-1/4 times the size of the OEM bead) to the front sight and see how much of the target it covers at different CAS distances. 

[Mysterious Stranger]

I did some more math on how much of a target a larger front sight bead might cover at CAS ranges.

 

The longest distance between the firing line and the berm at the CAS section of our local range is 40 yards = 1440 inches.

 

The current bead is 3/32" = .0938" diameter. It is located very approximately at no closer than an estimated 30" from my eye (since the rifle is about 39" in total OAL). So this is the worst case in terms of magnifying the apparent size of the front bead versus the target being engaged at the worst distance of 40 yards, where the bead would cover more of the target than at shorter ranges.

 

So, at 40 yards, the OEM front sight would "appear" to be 1440/30 = 48 times as large as it appears at 30", so about 4.5" in diameter. So, Pettifogger's concern is warranted, even with the OEM sight, IF the target is (a) at the maximum distance at our CAS range and (b) the target itself is 4.5" diameter or smaller. However, a 4.5' target at 40 yards would be pretty unusual for CAS even for the rifle part of a stage, wouldn't it?

 

The .177 primer used as a front sight bead would cover a .177 /  .0938 x 4.5" = 8.5" target at 40 yards.

 

The .210 large primer used as a front sight bead would cover a .210/.0938 x 4.5 = 10" target at 40 yards.

 

But, this all assumes that the bead, regardless of diameter, is CENTERED on the target.

 

If the bead is instead used to get a 6 o'clock hold sight picture, this problem goes away.

 

So, if I really need a larger front sight just for better visibility of the sight, I just need to make sure that I make the rear sight slit BOTH wider AND deeper, not only to allow the POI to get closer to the POA (because it is shooting high right now), but also to enable me to use a 6 0'clock hold. I think there is more than enough height and width to the leaf on the rear sight to enable that.

 

So, I will do some experimentation. 

[Texas Jack Black]

 Interesting I have shot SASS for over 30 years with a few rifles and I have never touched the sights and I still have a load of winners buckles .

 

Best wishes

[Mysterious Stranger]

I received my "Surehit" front sight "sleeves" today. They were designed specifically for CAS use, and have some important, and some unexpected, features!

 

First, they come as a "pair" to do TWO CAS revolvers, in 2 different heights for each of the two revolvers (i.e. a total of 4 pieces):

 

 

The "sprues" on each are easily filed off. I expected one sight for each revolver, but I like the choice of height. In my case, even the lower height is too high, but these are easily filed brass.

 

The Surehit sleeve is much wider than the thin OEM sight, being .173" wide versus the OEM sight which is tapered and only .045" wide at its topmost point. The Surehit sight sleeve is also bright brass, versus the OEM blued. AND, the Surehit sight sleeve is also truly "flat" at its top for a significant distance, so no ambiguity about where the top is when looking at it, unlike the OEM sight. Therefor, for all these reasons, the Surehit sight sleeve is WAY more visible than the OEM sight. I test mounted it on one of my revolvers just loosely (no cement yet) and tried lifting the revolver quickly towards a target, and found I could get a solid sight picture MUCH, MUCH faster.

 

But, there is much more:

 

Another unexpected set of features is evident in this next photo:

 

.

 

The Surehit sight sleeve is a hollow u-shape, with the 2 sides and the rear surface you see all being "solid", but the top, bottom, and front are all open. This is a FABULOUS feature!

 

This enables you to see exactly how much higher the un-filed Surehit sight is compared to your OEM sight. You can mount it in place temporarily with rubber cement (which fingernail polish remover will dissolve later when you wan it to do so), do some test firing with masking tape to mark different heights on the surehit, and then file the Surehit and OEM sights as an assembly to the finished height you want to get the POI at the elevation you want.

 

But the Surehit sight sleeve is also WIDER internally than the OEM sight it sits around. This means you can either shim it to one side or the other to correct a windage error in your revolver! You can either shim it and then cement it, or, I think, possibly, even simply place and mark a piece of masking tape on the barrel to guide you in positioning it, fill the spaces between the OEM sight and the Surehit sleeve with cement, position the Surehit exactly where you want it, and let it dry.

 

Recall that the oEM sight is only about .045" wide at its top. The internal width of the Surehit sleeve is .109".  (It's wall thickness on each side is about .032"). So, If you CENTER it on the OEM sight, you have about a (.109" minus .045")/2 = .032" gap on each side bewteen the Surehit and the OEM sight. So, you can shift the Surehit to either side by  up to .032" to help address a windage error in the OEM sight.

 

On my Cimarron revolvers with 4.75" barrel length and about a 5.5" sight radius, that .032" movement to one side will correct windage at 25 yards = 900 inches by up to 5.24" !

 

My 2 revolvers each have different amounts of windage error (proven by laser boresighting), but the worst of the 2 appears to have about a 3 to 4" windage error that places the POI left of the POA. So, the Surehit sleeve has enough usable gap to completely eliminate that windage error! I say that the current error is "about a 3 to 4" error" because the crappy OEM sights make it hard to get 5-shot groups good enough to trust for both windage and elevation error determination!

 

So, these Surehit sleeves might just be a pretty good, and pretty inexpensive, solution to BOTH the visibility issues and the windage and elevation issues in my OEM sights!

 

LOTS of testing to do now before I permanently mount the Surehit sleeves and file my resulting composite sights to their final correct height!

 

 

[Mysterious Stranger]

38 minutes ago, Texas Jack Black said:

 Interesting I have shot SASS for over 30 years with a few rifles and I have never touched the sights and I still have a load of winners buckles .

 

Best wishes

 

Yes, but I have had both my eye lenses replaced with plastic ones, I wear progressive glasses even after laser correction surgery, and My Mom was legally blind for the last decade or more of her life,  so I need some optical help, not the optical hindrance that the OEM sights bring.