What would you do if you bought a handgun that turned out to be stolen?

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

6 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Background checks through NICS does not require nor ask for a serial number.

 

If the TBI requires it, it's purely a State thing.

 

And some of you give California a hard time

Since my friend died a few years ago any TCIS checks I’ve had have been done on a computer so I don’t know what gets transferred to TICS. When he was alive he did them on the phone and he gave firearm type, model and serial number. Typically the phone call and approval process took less than 5 minutes and you are ready to leave with your gun. 
 

I don’t have a problem with knowing I’m not leaving with a stolen gun.

 

Randy

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

2 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

Since my friend died a few years ago any TCIS checks I’ve had have been done on a computer so I don’t know what gets transferred to TICS. When he was alive he did them on the phone and he gave firearm type, model and serial number. Typically the phone call and approval process took less than 5 minutes and you are ready to leave with your gun. 
 

I don’t have a problem with knowing I’m not leaving with a stolen gun.

 

Randy

Personal thing, but I don't like government knowing anything about what I have in firearms. (And this is why I don't post pictures of my belongings.)

 

NICS doesn't collect any of that info...just type.

 

Phantom

 

 

[Tennessee williams]

32 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Personal thing, but I don't like government knowing anything about what I have in firearms. (And this is why I don't post pictures of my belongings.)

 

NICS doesn't collect any of that info...just type.

 

Phantom

 

 

I don't like them knowing anything either. It's unlawful for TBI to keep the serial number info for more than 24hrs. I did a lot of checking into it. They say they don't keep it anyway. 

 

However the form 4473 for TN background checks do have the serial number of the purchased firearm, and that is required to be kept by the ffl transferring the firearm indefinitely.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

I don't like them knowing anything either. It's unlawful for TBI to keep the serial number info for more than 24hrs. I did a lot of checking into it. They say they don't keep it anyway. 

 

However the form 4473 for TN background checks do have the serial number of the purchased firearm, and that is required to be kept by the ffl transferring the firearm indefinitely.

Yes...I understand the requirement to ID the firearm in section A of the 4473. No problem with that...I just don't like giving that info out...and yeah I'm sure written into the law there in TN that TBI can't retain that info...oh wait...I don't trust government...so...yeah, still don't like it.

 

[Hendo]

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

7 minutes ago, Hendo said:

But you are aware that not all the information in section A gets transmitted to NICS...right???

 

Phantom

[Tennessee williams]

2 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Yes...I understand the requirement to ID the firearm in section A of the 4473. No problem with that...I just don't like giving that info out...and yeah I'm sure written into the law there in TN that TBI can't retain that info...oh wait...I don't trust government...so...yeah, still don't like it.

 

I don't like it either brother. I questioned it a lot. ATF got tired of hearing from me.

[Tennessee williams]

Just now, Tennessee williams said:

I don't like it either brother. I questioned it a lot. ATF got tired of hearing from me.

And I really don't like the gun show "loophole" they talk about "fixing".

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

5 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

And I really don't like the gun show "loophole" they talk about "fixing".

Yeah...the mythical Gun Show Loophole...just like the mythical Internet Gun Sale Loophole.

 

Ya know, it was Bigfoot that designed those loopholes...if only we can find him and get him to admit it, we'd be able to stop all this craziness!

 

[Tennessee williams]

1 minute ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Yeah...the mythical Gun Show Loophole...just like the mythical Internet Gun Sale Loophole.

 

Ya know, it was Bigfoot that designed those loopholes...if only we can find him and get him to admit it, we'd be able to stop all this craziness!

 

Probably hangs out with Widder.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Just now, Tennessee williams said:

Probably hangs out with Widder.

It probably is Widder...

[Widder, SASS #59054]

8 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

Probably hangs out with Widder.

 

8 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

It probably is Widder...

 

And that is why I ain't telling WHERE BF is hiding.

 

..........Widder

 

[El Chapo]

18 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

OP took place in TN

It does in TN

The only thing they know in TN 24hrs after my purchase is a background check was done for the purchase of a firearm.

Wrong. Check your doctorate.

The purchaser is being investigated to purchase a firearm.

Luckily it wasn't from your doctorate

The reason is the purchase of a firearm.

No. For instance. My weedeater gets stolen from a crackhead that is faster than my 12ga shot. That crackhead takes said weedeater to the pawnshop. I have reported my weedeater stolen. Our detectives are pretty good around here and don't go by their doctorate and actually search pawnshops for my weedeater. They find my weedeater at said pawnshop. Guess who has two thumbs and gets his weedeater back? Me. Guess who has to try to get their money back from the crackhead? The pawnshop.

 

The regulations that govern the use of NCIC are federal law.  If your state has its own database, they may have different rules.  But it is not permissible use of the NCIC's databases to search for information unrelated to an actual criminal investigation, and literally everyone who has physical access to a terminal that has access the database has to be trained in what we are and aren't permitted to use it for. 

 

A pawnbroker who buys a weedeater from a customer does not implicate the bona fide purchaser doctrine because it only applies where an item is sold by a dealer in goods of that kind.  A random person walking into a pawn shop with stolen merchandise is not the same as purchasing a firearm (new or used) from a firearm dealer.  For at least a few hundred years, purchasers who buy from merchants and pay market value have been protected from other people claiming theft.  The policy rationale behind that is that if a customer walks into a store, buys something, and walks out, we've decided as a society that it's better for the innocent purchaser to keep the property and for the merchant to bear the liability rather than an innocent purchaser.  In what you describe in your example, the true owner has a better claim to title than the purchaser.  In the hypothetical presented by this thread, the purchaser from a merchant of firearms has a better claim of title than even a person who claims to be the true owner of the property.  While antique firearms and such may be less fungible than other market goods, the law doesn't distinguish, and since merchandise for sale in a store is considered fungible, the true owner's remedy is compensation from the merchant rather than returning the goods to the purported (or even proven) true owner.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Chacon,

This is not intended to be a silly question but rather to

learn more about this stuff.

Is it possible that your state or agency has those restrictions

you mentioned about using the NCIC db, but the state of 

Tennessee (particularly TBI) does not have those restrictions.

 

..........Widder

 

[Tennessee williams]

1 hour ago, Chacón said:

 

The regulations that govern the use of NCIC are federal law.  If your state has its own database, they may have different rules.  But it is not permissible use of the NCIC's databases to search for information unrelated to an actual criminal investigation, and literally everyone who has physical access to a terminal that has access the database has to be trained in what we are and aren't permitted to use it for. 

I am beginning to wonder if you have anything at all to do with law enforcement or if you just ain't good at it. Yes, TBI uses the NCIC. Also, the regular old NICS operator your ffl talks to when they call in for a transfer uses the NCIC. Not only that but the FBI agents that are checking people for their clearance levels use the NCIC for their background checks as well. I posted a link as well as a screenshot of the procedures. Did you read it? I think not. Here is a different screen shot for you. One with less reading involved.

 

1 hour ago, Chacón said:

A pawnbroker who buys a weedeater from a customer does not implicate the bona fide purchaser doctrine because it only applies where an item is sold by a dealer in goods of that kind.  A random person walking into a pawn shop with stolen merchandise is not the same as purchasing a firearm (new or used) from a firearm dealer.  For at least a few hundred years, purchasers who buy from merchants and pay market value have been protected from other people claiming theft.  The policy rationale behind that is that if a customer walks into a store, buys something, and walks out, we've decided as a society that it's better for the innocent purchaser to keep the property and for the merchant to bear the liability rather than an innocent purchaser.  In what you describe in your example, the true owner has a better claim to title than the purchaser.  In the hypothetical presented by this thread, the purchaser from a merchant of firearms has a better claim of title than even a person who claims to be the true owner of the property.  While antique firearms and such may be less fungible than other market goods, the law doesn't distinguish, and since merchandise for sale in a store is considered fungible, the true owner's remedy is compensation from the merchant rather than returning the goods to the purported (or even proven) true owner.

You keep saying that, but it ain't how it works here. Pawnshop was no different from a gun store. My grandpa's pistol gets stolen by that same crackhead. He trades it to another crackhead for some dope. That crackhead takes it to the gun store and trades or sells it in TN. When the gun store goes to sell it, the serial number is run through the NCIC and pings because I have reported it stolen. The gun is taken into the local PD custody to use as evidence. The ffl has to give the PD the persons' info that sold it to them. PD pays a visit to him. They find that he bought it from the first crackhead. PD pays a visit to first crackhead.

After all that, and all the use for the evidence is exhausted, I get grandads gun back. 

Gun store gets money back from 2nd crackhead. 2nd crackhead gets his money back from the 1st crackhead. 1st crackhead gets no money back.

 

By the way that is an actual example except it wasn't my grandads gun.

 

Why can't you admit you're wrong? I gave you the "evidence".

[El Chapo]

35 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

I am beginning to wonder if you have anything at all to do with law enforcement or if you just ain't good at it. Yes, TBI uses the NCIC. Also, the regular old NICS operator your ffl talks to when they call in for a transfer uses the NCIC. Not only that but the FBI agents that are checking people for their clearance levels use the NCIC for their background checks as well. I posted a link as well as a screenshot of the procedures. Did you read it? I think not. Here is a different screen shot for you. One with less reading involved.

 

You keep saying that, but it ain't how it works here. Pawnshop was no different from a gun store. My grandpa's pistol gets stolen by that same crackhead. He trades it to another crackhead for some dope. That crackhead takes it to the gun store and trades or sells it in TN. When the gun store goes to sell it, the serial number is run through the NCIC and pings because I have reported it stolen. The gun is taken into the local PD custody to use as evidence. The ffl has to give the PD the persons' info that sold it to them. PD pays a visit to him. They find that he bought it from the first crackhead. PD pays a visit to first crackhead.

After all that, and all the use for the evidence is exhausted, I get grandads gun back. 

Gun store gets money back from 2nd crackhead. 2nd crackhead gets his money back from the 1st crackhead. 1st crackhead gets no money back.

 

By the way that is an actual example except it wasn't my grandads gun.

 

Why can't you admit you're wrong? I gave you the "evidence".

 

NCIC is a federal database and its use is governed by federal regulations.  If you spent 5 minutes googling "NCIC access restrictions" you will find so much to read about that it'll make your head spin.  I'm absolutely familiar with the use of this information because I deal with it on a literal daily basis and I know your claims to be demonstrably false.  If I were to ask our NCIC coordinator to run a piece of property or a person under the facts you describe, the request would be denied because we could lose our access to that information if we were to use it for that purpose.  We cannot  use it for purposes other than active criminal investigation, and a routine transfer of ownership of a piece of property does not constitute such a reason.

 

Gun stores do not have access to NCIC.  I wish it were that way, because maybe  someday I'd get my shotgun back, because for all I know, it's in the custody of an innocent person who bought it on gunbroker and the scumbag who stole my gun made money on the sale.

 

You keep describing how you think criminal  investigations work, forgetting the fact that there has to be credible suspicion that a crime has occurred before any of those things apply.  An NCIC hit from 24 years ago without further indicia of reliability is not probable cause.  NCIC is full of errors, for example, stolen cars that were recovered by other agencies are routinely not cleared from the database.  In America, where people have a right to be free from unreasonable seizures, those of us empowered to enforce the law carefully exercise those powers against people we have strong reason to believe are guilty, not just anyone who gets caught in an ambiguous circumstance.

 

A 24 year old NCIC hit is cause for further investigation, not an end in and to itself.

 

In your example, a pawn shop may actually be different than a actual gun store, because under hundreds of years of law, a store can confer a greater title than even the purported true owner can claim.  No matter how many times you deny the existence of this doctrine, it's as old as merchants themselves.

 

So, back to the question actually asked: If I gave market value to a dealer in goods of that kind for a piece of property, I would cooperate with whatever investigation there was into someone else's claim of title, but I would also assert my rights as a bona fide purchaser for value against the claim.  Because at the end of the day, it's not that I don't care about the victim who maybe had his gun stolen or is perhaps a liar, it's that I look out for myself and I'm familiar with the protections of the law in this instance.  If I have more right to it than he does, even if it's stolen, I'll let him collect from the thieves and not from me, the innocent person.  Unlike you, I don't automatically take some person's claim as credible.  I have been around long enough to know that someone can claim something was stolen from them even if it wasn't, either because they are ignorant of the law or maybe because they're malicious fraudsters themselves who lie to get ahead.

 

And if I had the power, I'd make NCIC a public record database where anyone could search it for any reason to avoid these situations, but I didn't make the rules, I am simply tasked with following them and enforcing them.  That's probably why your state has its own database--because it doesn't like the rules that apply to the federal ones.  Or maybe it's sick of the mistakes and errors.  Either way, the reason we have 50 states is because every state gets to make their own policies on these things.

 

  

2 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Chacon,

This is not intended to be a silly question but rather to

learn more about this stuff.

Is it possible that your state or agency has those restrictions

you mentioned about using the NCIC db, but the state of 

Tennessee (particularly TBI) does not have those restrictions.

 

..........Widder

 

 

No it isn't.  The NCIC access restrictions are imposed on us by the FBI.  I'm not a huge fan of them, as there are situations like this where the information could prove useful but it can't be accessed for an impermissible purpose.  I wish it weren't that way sometimes, but as I said above, I have to follow the rules, but I don't get to make them.

 

States can have their own databases and routinely do, for example, the federal combined DNA index system, aka CODIS, has some very restrictive rules about how DNA can be used in investigations, and so states maintain separate databases so they can use them for broader purposes than CODIS allows in certain circumstances.  How that applies to a given situation can be difficult, but there are times where one set of rules allow it and the other will not.  NCIC and state-similar crime databases can be the same way, but the rules for NCIC are the same for everyone.

 

There are also times where federal law would allow investigating, but the state law will not, e.g., in New Mexico, it's generally not permissible to investigate passengers on a traffic stop even where the vehicle is lawfully stopped.  The feds wouldn't care if you ran everyone in the car, since that is part of an active criminal investigation of the driver.  Our law does not allow investigating passengers unless the suspicion that justified the stop in the first place extends to the passengers, yet another decision I disagree with and think was wrongly decided but  didn't get to make.

[Tennessee williams]

9 minutes ago, Chacón said:

 

NCIC is a federal database and its use is governed by federal regulations.  If you spent 5 minutes googling "NCIC access restrictions" you will find so much to read about that it'll make your head spin.  I'm absolutely familiar with the use of this information because I deal with it on a literal daily basis and I know your claims to be demonstrably false.  If I were to ask our NCIC coordinator to run a piece of property or a person under the facts you describe, the request would be denied because we could lose our access to that information if we were to use it for that purpose.  We cannot  use it for purposes other than active criminal investigation, and a routine transfer of ownership of a piece of property does not constitute such a reason.

 

I'm blowing it up real big for ya. This is getting laughable but a little sad too. 

 

 

Real big now, read the top line. That's the first sentence.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Uhhh...two difffernet things here.

 

Communication with NICS for a "Background" check and communicating with NICS for access to their db on stolen firearms.

 

All I know is that we (FFL), have zero access to the db that contains info on stolen firearms.

 

Phantom

[El Chapo]

12 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

 

I'm blowing it up real big for ya. This is getting laughable but a little sad too. 

 

 

Real big now, read the top line. That's the first sentence.

 

The purpose of a NICS check is a criminal background check.  Of course that gets performed.  What we are talking about is running the serial number of a piece of property, the firearm, through a separate database to determine if it was reported stolen.  The NICS check is a required part of a firearms transaction with the FFL because Congress says so and not doing so is a violation of the law.

 

Interestingly, the same regulations that prevent me from running people I'm not investigating would also apply to the police.  If you went to the police station and told them you were selling a gun to Joe Schmoe and you wanted an NCIC check to determine whether he was a felon, they would have to decline to do so.  The access restrictions I discussed earlier would prevent them from accessing the database for that purpose because they are not investigating your buyer, they have no reason to believe he's a criminal and attempting to buy a gun from you because he's a felon, etc.  If I had the power,  I'd change this, because all responsible people would want to take advantage of the FBI's record of such information if they had access.  But since the private sale of a firearm is not a "criminal justice purpose" and the police would have no suspicion as to that person, the NCIC database cannot be used in this instance.  Is that good policy?  I'll let you be the judge.  But in that instance, they could neither run the person nor the gun.

 

Now if you offered to sell an antique Colt to a pawnbroker for $50 and left it at the pawnbroker's shop and they reported that to the police, that's a different story.  When the police arrive and see it's a several thousand dollar antique revolver that someone wanted to sell to a pawnbroker for vastly below market value, their suspicion is obviously raised (and reasonably so).  They would run the gun in that instance and if it returned stolen, the person who'd tried to sell it might have some explaining to do.  Here, the NCIC database is being used for a legitimate criminal justice purpose--investigating a set of suspicious circumstances--rather than investigating a routine transaction with no reason to believe any criminal activity is afoot.

 

As usual, the difference between good police work and unreasonable searches and seizures hinges on facts--suspicion--followed by action.  Just like I tell the newest cadets in the academy when I teach these materials.

[Tennessee williams]

3 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Uhhh...two difffernet things here.

 

Communication with NICS for a "Background" check and communicating with NICS for access to their db on stolen firearms.

 

All I know is that we (FFL), have zero access to the db that contains info on stolen firearms.

 

Phantom

ALL states' NICS check access the NCIC database which includes 21 files. 12 of those are personnel files. (which ALL states NICS check)7 are property files (which TBI access also)

That being said, ALL states do not have to give the sn of the firearm for transfer. TN does since it is a point of contact state and those are our laws. To clear it up a bit.

I see Joe blow has a gun for sale. I want to buy that gun. I don't know if Joe is a crackhead or not and stole it. I get the idea to call my sherriffs dept to see if the gun is stolen. CANT DO THAT, they're limited to criminal justice activity. So unless he's pulled over and they suspect it's stolen they can't do it. Now, WHAT I CAN DO, is go to my local ffl dealer and pay them 20 bucks to transfer the gun. They call in the NICS check which in TN accesses the property portion also of NCIC and they tell me Joe may be a crackhead but the gun is not stolen. I just can't seem to beat that into Chacons' head.

[Tennessee williams]

9 minutes ago, Chacón said:

 

The purpose of a NICS check is a criminal background check.  Of course that gets performed. 

By accessing the NCIC. Like I said.

9 minutes ago, Chacón said:

What we are talking about is running the serial number of a piece of property, the firearm, through a separate database to determine if it was reported stolen. 

No. NCIC is the database consisting of 21 files. 12 personnel and 7 property files. In TN during the NICS check that accesses the NCIC it checks the gun portion of the property files as well. 

9 minutes ago, Chacón said:

The NICS check is a required part of a firearms transaction with the FFL because Congress says so and not doing so is a violation of the law.

Yes.

 

I feel like I'm sinnin' by casting my pearls before the swine.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

5 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

ALL states' NICS check access the NCIC database which includes 21 files. 12 of those are personnel files. (which ALL states NICS check)7 are property files (which TBI access also)

That being said, ALL states do not have to give the sn of the firearm for transfer. TN does since it is a point of contact state and those are our laws. To clear it up a bit.

I see Joe blow has a gun for sale. I want to buy that gun. I don't know if Joe is a crackhead or not and stole it. I get the idea to call my sherriffs dept to see if the gun is stolen. CANT DO THAT, they're limited to criminal justice activity. So unless he's pulled over and they suspect it's stolen they can't do it. Now, WHAT I CAN DO, is go to my local ffl dealer and pay them 20 bucks to transfer the gun. They call in the NICS check which in TN accesses the property portion also of NCIC and they tell me Joe may be a crackhead but the gun is not stolen. I just can't seem to beat that into Chacons' head.

And as I've said all along, since I'm not a TN FFL, I've no clue to what goes on there. 

 

I am a bit surprised that a db that has info. that can be terribly flawed (aged, poor maintenance, etc), can have so much power...I've had "decline" results because of flawed data...

 

But it is what it is! 

 

Moral of the Story: Move out of TN if you're a gun person

[Tennessee williams]

Just now, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

And as I've said all along, since I'm not a TN FFL, I've no clue to what goes on there. 

 

I am a bit surprised that a db that has info. that can be terribly flawed (aged, poor maintenance, etc), can have so much power...I've had "decline" results because of flawed data...

 

But it is what it is! 

 

Moral of the Story: Move out of TN if you're a gun person

Naw, just move out if you like dealing with stolen guns. We don't even have to have a permit here to carry. I likes it.

[El Chapo]

2 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

And as I've said all along, since I'm not a TN FFL, I've no clue to what goes on there. 

 

I am a bit surprised that a db that has info. that can be terribly flawed (aged, poor maintenance, etc), can have so much power...I've had "decline" results because of flawed data...

 

But it is what it is! 

 

Moral of the Story: Move out of TN if you're a gun person

I agree with both of those points!  There is absolutely no reason for my serial number to be transmitted to a government agency for a routine background check of ME.  I had always thought TN was a pretty free state until I read that!

 

But, the FBI performs NICS checks so if they violate their own access restrictions, nobody's going to punish them for it.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

3 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Naw, just move out if you like dealing with stolen guns. We don't even have to have a permit here to carry. I likes it.

I was referring more to the fact that the gov't has serial number/make/model info. on one's firearms.

 

[Tennessee williams]

3 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I was referring more to the fact that the gov't has serial number/make/model info. on one's firearms.

 

Now just take this at face value cause we all know all laws are always followed.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Just now, Tennessee williams said:

Now just take this at face value cause we all know all laws are always followed.

yes...but this doesn't say anything about TBI destroying record of a search.

 

[Tennessee williams]

3 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

yes...but this doesn't say anything about TBI destroying record of a search.

 

ATF is the principal authority tasked with making sure they are destroyed. Only know that because it was one of my phone calls saying just what you did

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

19 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

ATF is the principal authority tasked with making sure they are destroyed. Only know that because it was one of my phone calls saying just what you did

After we were burglarized in...what...2016...??...we had ATF at our shop doing an audit to make sure all the firearms that were stolen were accounted for. We were pretty much done when one of the guys asks about a "rifle" that was sitting near one of our safes.

 

I picked it up and said "This one?"

 

"Yes"

 

"It's a Fake"

 

"What do you mean?

 

"It's not real"

 

"But it's a Rifle"

 

"It's non-firing"

 

"????"

 

"It's a TOY!"

 

"????"

 

"ugh...look, it plastic and wood. It's a TOY gun that doesn't fire projectiles nor even make a 'BANG' sound".

 

"oh...so there's no Firearm ID Number for that then"

 

"Nope"

 

Sooooo...no, I don't trust that the Gov't will "destroy" that data which was collected.

 

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

17 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Yeah...the mythical Gun Show Loophole...just like the mythical Internet Gun Sale Loophole.

 

Ya know, it was Bigfoot that designed those loopholes...if only we can find him and get him to admit it, we'd be able to stop all this craziness!

 

I spotted him by a creek in Lewisburg Tennessee a month or two ago.

 

Randy

 

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

I spotted him by a creek in Lewisburg Tennessee a month or two ago.

 

Randy

 

 

He's looking for those records of the S/N's...typical government...he's lost!

[Singin' Sue 71615]

1 hour ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

I spotted him by a creek in Lewisburg Tennessee a month or two ago.

 

Randy

 

 

We saw several with bandanas on our trip out East!!!

[Hendo]

If this goes to page 4, I'm putting the popcorn down and making cornbread. 

[Fox Creek Stitcher]

3 hours ago, Hendo said:

If this goes to page 4, I'm putting the popcorn down and making cornbread. 

 

I had no idea I was initiating such controversy. 

[Hendo]

38 minutes ago, Fox Creek Stitcher said:

 

I had no idea I was initiating such controversy. 

Honestly, I was just needing an excuse to try a new recipe that involves hatch chilis and honey.