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Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life

Cowboy 45 Special

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Howdy GK.

I'm a little familiar with the C45S Cartridge.   I'm the creator of the 'Widdermajik' modified 1894 Marlin.

Prior to my modifications on the 1894, the Marlin had to be short stroked in order to 

feed and function well with the shorter C45S round.

The Widdermajik allowed BOTH the .45 Colt and the C45S cartridges to reliably feed and

function in the 1894 without being short stroked.

 

Actually, the letters 'aj' I used to name it 'Widdermajik'  was to make note of its creator, Adirondack Jack.

 

Anyhow, here is some load data I have tested and chronographed.    PLUS, you may find it interesting

to see my note on velocities using a roll crimp vs. a taper crimp.

 

DIES:  

Redding .45 Colt carbide sizing die

Redding .45 ACP expander die

Redding .45 Colt seating and roll crimp die, which has been shortened to enable the crimp portion to work.

Redding .45 ACP taper crimp die.

 

PISTOL DATA (3.5" barrels):

160 gr.          4.0 Red Dot          632 fps  (no residue. No pressure signs. Cases extracted easy.)

 

160 gr.          4.1  Clays          618 fps  (slight residue. No pressure signs.  Cases extracted easy.)

 

160 gr.          4.2  Clean Shot          552 fps  (some powder residue. This is a soft shooting load,) Did not like it.

160 gr.          4.6  Clean Shot          640 fps  (slight powder residue.  FAVORITE LOAD)

160 gr.          4.8  Clean Shot          677 fps  (slight powder residue.  No pressure signs)

160 gr.          5.0  Clean Shot          713 fps  (slight powder residue.  No pressure signs)

 

ROLL CRIMP VS. TAPER CRIMP:

160 gr.          4.0 Clays          576 fps   Roll Crimp

160 gr.           4.0 Clays          517 fps   Taper Crimp

 

160 gr.          3.5  Red Dot       385 fps   Roll Crimp

160 gr.          3.5  Red Dot        364 fps   Taper Crimp

 

I only tested these two different loads for my Roll vs. Taper crimp test.

These velocity averages were also from 3.5" barrel Vaqueros.

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

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I seat and roll-crimp my C45Spl loads in one .45 Auto Rim seater/crimp die.   How?  I crimp into the LAND of the bullet rather than into a crimp groove!   I get a tight crimp that forms nicely since I use a soft alloy (Brinnell hardness of 8).  

 

This setup allows me not to be trimming cases precisely, worrying about case length much, etc.   I don't have to switch to a Dillon 650 loader to get the fifth station.   (My third station on a 550 has an RCBS powder lock-out die in it.)  Nor do I fiddle with the seating depth/crimp position.   If I hit the land (which is 0.100" wide), the crimp will form just fine.  And as for leaving a slight bit of bump at the crimp, remember we are shoving 0.473" +/- diameter cartridges into chambers that are cut, per SAAMI specs, to 0.480" internal diameter (the sloppiest chambers in the firearms world, AFAIK).   So, I never have a problem slipping my loaded rounds into my Ruger revolvers.

 

Good luck, GJ

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GJ, do you cast your own bullets to get down to BHN=8?

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2 hours ago, bgavin said:

GJ, do you cast your own bullets to get down to BHN=8?

 

I do cast - a lot this last month.  :lol:   BN Hardness 8 is about 2/3 C.O. Wheel Weight and 1/3 Soft Lead.   Cowboy AND WB - all run just fine and never lead because the bullets bump to completely fill the bore.   I even make my own bullet lube.   I don't worry what vendors have or don't.    :ph34r:

 

And the C45 Spl bullet I use is an Accurate mold I designed - Accurate 45-175B truncated cone with moderately large lube groove. 

 

Good luck, GJ

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I figured as much.

I don't have an interest in cooking lead, so I arranged with Ringer to make runs of BHN=9 for my in 357 and 44.
He makes nice bullets.. very uniform and Hi-Tek coated.
I'm more than happy to send him my business.

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This is an interesting caliber.  However, I was never clear on what the big advantage was, in this caliber, over the .45 Schofield.  Is it that much difference in performance, at the ranges we use in C.A.S.?

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Waxahachie Kid #17017 L said:

This is an interesting caliber.  However, I was never clear on what the big advantage was, in this caliber, over the .45 Schofield.  Is it that much difference in performance, at the ranges we use in C.A.S.?

 

 

 

From my experience, the advantages are significantly reduced recoil, significant reduction in powder and lead used.  At the ranges we are shooting, the performance of the Cowboy .45 Spl. is excellent.  

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For those interested in shooting 44 mags, the 44 Russian cartridge offers a similar benefit to 45CS, as well as the problems inherent in a much shorter cartridge.

The 45 Colt trim-to-length is 1.285" compared to 0.895" for the 45CS (Starline #1640).
The 44 Russian TTL is 0.960". (Starline #4400).

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1 hour ago, Sarge said:
Quote

This is an interesting caliber.  cartridge

From my experience, the advantages are significantly reduced recoil, significant reduction in powder and lead used.  At the ranges we are shooting, the performance of the Cowboy .45 Spl. is excellent.  

 

And light .45 caliber loads are much more consistent and less squibby in C45Spl  than in cases that can only be 1/3 filled with most powders.

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8 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

..and less squibby than in cases that can only be 1/3 filled with most powders.


That is my entire attraction to Trail Boss.
Clays is 2nd best, but still a very long way down from TB for case filling.

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That is my entire attraction to Trail Boss.

My aversion to Trail Boss is that it is almost twice as expensive as most other powders, and my case filling is already being checked 100% accurately by a completely automatic device without me taking time (and trying to remember) to be peeking in each and every case.

Good luck, GJ

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GJ: Exactly where is the land of a bullet? Haven't heard that term used before in regards to bullets, just bores.

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Bands, or sometimes Lands, they are the full diameter sections of the shank of the cast bullet.  Front one (foremost) is the Driving Band (because it engages the rifling first and drives the bullet to rotate).    Last one is often called the sealing band (sealing in the combustion gases so they can't slip by the bullet).

 

Probably from recognizing that the bullet shank has crimp and lube and gas check grooves cut in a straight cylinder.  So the definition:

"Land - an area of a partly machined surface that is left without machining"

can be applied to the bands left in the full-bore diameter shank.

 

Good luck, GJ

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Bullets are not normally machined, so I don't think that definition will work. It is certainly not in common use. Thanks for your explanation.

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I've always thought the forward portion of the bullet that engages the rifling first is called the 'OGIVE'.

 

?

 

..........Widder

 

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That little groovy thing around the bullet where you crimp is called the cannelure I think.

 

Lucky

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1 hour ago, Lucky R. K. said:

That little groovy thing around the bullet where you crimp is called the cannelure I think.

 

Lucky

 

Howdy Lucky.    You are correct about the 'crimp and cannelure' on bullets that have

a cannelure.

 

BUT, there is an official term used for an area of the bullet...particulary full metal jacketed bullets... that

becomes the actual diameter of the bullet that first engages the rifling.   Its not the nose of the bullet,

but rather the point at which the bullet angles into the actual diameter of the bullet.

 

I could be wrong, but I think that is referred to as the 'Ogive'.

 

..........Widder

 

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Let's grab some Pop Corn, I thought the "ogive" was the curved part above the brass.

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50 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Let's grab some Pop Corn, I thought the "ogive" was the curved part above the brass.

 

Howdy Eyesa.

You may be correct..... but isn't it the area where the curve stops and the straight section starts, which

is where the bullet first touches the rifling?

 

..........Widder

 

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EYESA,   looks like you got it right.    I probably should have been using the term 'shoulder' instead

of Ogive.

 

Thanks

 

..........Widder

 

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44 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Howdy Eyesa.

You may be correct..... but isn't it the area where the curve stops and the straight section starts, which

is where the bullet first touches the rifling?

 

..........Widder

 

I believe you are correct.

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Sure, now I see the next post with a picture. I like pictures.:D

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The part the first engages the rifling -

 

"Driving band" is the top most band on a cast bullet, usually just forward of the crimp groove, but sometimes behind  the crimp groove, depending upon the design of the cast bullet.  That is what catches the rifling and starts bullet rotating in the barrel.

 

Ogive is the rounded nose of a spitzer or even a RN bullet.  It is smaller than bore diameter so it never touches rifling.

 

A bore-rider design has a section of nose behind the "point" that is just at or slightly larger than BORE diameter, which keeps a long nose from bending or flopping around as it runs through the barrel.  Unheard of in pistol designs, but a coming thing for high accuracy in rifle cast bullet designs.  The bore-rider section's diameter is smaller than groove diameter, so the driving band that follows this bore-rider section IS at groove diameter or a thou or 2 larger than grooves, and still is what rotates the bullet.

 

Good luck, GJ

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