WTC - Empty round on Carrier? UPDATED (Penalty Clarification)

[Yusta B.]

1 minute ago, Father Kit Cool Gun Garth said:

 

 

Chesty:

    As Yusta stated, the shooter did clear the long gun before setting down on the loading table.

    I just edited the 2nd OP to state that the shooter removed the standing casing before picking up his rifle.

Did he clear the case before next gun was shot ? If not - MSV.

[Father Kit Cool Gun Garth]

4 minutes ago, Yusta B. said:

Did he clear the case before next gun was shot ? If not - MSV.

 

Yusta:

    The long gun was the last firearm for the stage.

    The firearm was cleared after the TO advised the shooter, but before getting to the UT.

   

[Dantankerous]

What if...

 

A rifle case is ejected into the ejection port of a 97 shotgun AFTER the shotgun has been fired, although no one saw it do so?

 

Issat ALSO a MSV for a round being left in the long gun? Or a complete common sense no call because everyone knows that the rifle round MUST have just landed in the other gun, a gun it has no reason to be in, although no one saw it happen?

 

You just know someone will make an issue out of this somewhere, sometime...

 

[Yusta B.]

4 minutes ago, Father Kit Cool Gun Garth said:

 

Yusta:

    The long gun was the last firearm for the stage.

    The firearm was cleared after the TO advised the shooter, but before getting to the UT.

   

In the OP it was stated the shotgun was fired after the rifle ???

 

[Father Kit Cool Gun Garth]

7 minutes ago, Yusta B. said:

In the OP it was stated the shotgun was fired after the rifle ???

 

 

Yusta:

    I guess another clarification should be made. The OP was an issue with a casing standing on the carrier of a long gun even though I laid out a stage scenario. Unfortunately, I wanted to just use the standing casing issue that was presented in the OP in the 2nd Posting to make a point regarding the degree of penalty for various firearm violations. That was not my intent. The 2nd Posting should stand on it's own with the only reference to the OP being the standing casing on carrier violation.

    My apologies for the confusion.   I get that way if I don't have my morning coffee before making a post.  

[Yusta B.]

If you change the conditions you might consider starting a new thread. When the conditions change in the middle of a thread, it can make all the posts up the point of the change irrelevant.

[Father Kit Cool Gun Garth]

4 minutes ago, Yusta B. said:

If you change the conditions you might consider starting a new thread. When the conditions change in the middle of a thread, it can make all the posts up the point of the change irrelevant.

 

Yusta:

    That was going to be my original plan; however, after some soul searching  (A) I didn't want everyone to think I was "hogging" the WIRE, and (B) sometimes, it's hard to start a new thread and reference another.

    In the future it is probably, as you suggested, better to start a new thread.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

1 hour ago, Dantankerous said:

What if...

 

A rifle case is ejected into the ejection port of a 97 shotgun AFTER the shotgun has been fired, although no one saw it do so?

 

Issat ALSO a MSV for a round being left in the long gun? Or a complete common sense no call because everyone knows that the rifle round MUST have just landed in the other gun, a gun it has no reason to be in, although no one saw it happen?

 

You just know someone will make an issue out of this somewhere, sometime...

 

 

Read The...rules. 

That is covered as a "no call" because someone DID try to assess a MSV for rifle brass in the action of a shotgun.  

 

Quote

"Minor" safety infractions are occurrences such as leaving empty or live rounds in magazine or on the carrier of the long gun in which it was loaded or cocking a revolver before the muzzle reaches 45 degrees downrange.

SHB p.20

 

 

[Yusta B.]

You're not hogging the wire. A thread is only a title in a list of threads. If people aren't interested in a thread, it's easy to skip it. Post your questions as you wish.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

5 minutes ago, Father Kit Cool Gun Garth said:

 

Yusta:

    That was going to be my original plan; however, after some soul searching  (A) I didn't want everyone to think I was "hogging" the WIRE, and (B) sometimes, it's hard to start a new thread and reference another.

    In the future it is probably, as you suggested, to start a new thread.

 

There is only ONE "OP" (ORIGINAL POST) per thread. 

[J.S. Sooner, SASS #73526]

2 hours ago, Father Kit Cool Gun Garth said:

Everyone:

    Here is the conclusion that I intended the OP to come to.

 

Penalty Clarification

 

Shooter shoots Silver Senior:

During a single stage, after shooter successfully completes the shotgun station, shooter now moves to the revolver station where they fire five (5) rounds from their first revolver, and fire four (4) rounds from their second revolver, when the fifth round doesn’t fire. After pulling the hammer several times, they are unable to get that last round to fire. Shooter assumes the primer is bad for some reason, holsters the firearm and moves to the next station (does not call for a malfunction) whereupon picking up their rifle, fires all ten (10) rounds before placing their rifle on the table with action open; however, the last expended casing is still on the carrier, straight up as in OP. Stage is complete. The TO verifies with shooter that a spent casing is still in the long gun. Shooter picks up the standing casing and moves to the unloading table, it is verified that the revolver has a live round in it; however, it was NOT under the hammer.

When reading the ROI Course Student Handbook (v22.1 February 2017):

Is the correct call a 10 sec MSV for the long gun and 5 sec MISS for the revolver?

(NOTE: Please keep in mind this is only an example and did not actually happen)

As stated in this example, the rifle was the last gun fired, empty case was cleared by the shooter prior to setting the rifle down on unloading table. No minor safety, just one miss for pistol round not fired.

[Yusta B.]

28 minutes ago, J.S. Sooner, SASS #73526 said:

As stated in this example, the rifle was the last gun fired, empty case was cleared by the shooter prior to setting the rifle down on unloading table. No minor safety, just one miss for pistol round not fired.

Correct.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Lots of good shooters lay their 97s and rifles port down to avoid having a round accidentally fall into the open port if up. 

[Hawkeye Kid]

If the last firearm has an empty case in the carrier, as long as it doesn't, leave your hand, you can clear the case between the firing line and at the unloading table without penalty.  As soon as it leaves your hand, the penalty is asset.

[Father Kit Cool Gun Garth]

1 hour ago, KH24 said:

If the last firearm has an empty case in the carrier, as long as it doesn't, leave your hand, you can clear the case between the firing line and at the unloading table without penalty.  As soon as it leaves your hand, the penalty is asset.

 

KH24:

    Thank you for the additional clarification.

    The key is when the firearm leaves your possession.

    Unfortunately, the tales told by Yusta B., Allie Mo and Pat Riot involve situations where the firearm was not the last one and therefore was placed on the staging table and any casing that appeared in an unusual manner on the carrier was seen either as they were approaching the next station, or at the next station before they fired the next firearm.

    Regardless, this is still GOOD information to know.

[J.S. Sooner, SASS #73526]

2 hours ago, KH24 said:

If the last firearm has an empty case in the carrier, as long as it doesn't, leave your hand, you can clear the case between the firing line and at the unloading table without penalty.  As soon as it leaves your hand, the penalty is asset.

 

Not in this case. If there were another gun to finish the stage, the shooter would have until they fire the next gun to clear the empty on the carrier. Being the last gun fired on the stage, the shooter has until they take their hand off the gun at the unloading table. 

 

Shooters Handbook 21.8 Page 24  #17. Long guns will be cleared and discarded with their barrels pointed safely downrange. A 10-second minor safety penalty will be assessed if the firearm is not cleared. This condition may be corrected prior to the next round being fired. If the long gun is the last firearm used, it must be cleared prior to it leaving the shooters hand(s) at the unloading table.

 

[Hawkeye Kid]

1 hour ago, Father Kit Cool Gun Garth said:

 

KH24:

    Thank you for the additional clarification.

    The key is when the firearm leaves your possession.

    Unfortunately, the tales told by Yusta B., Allie Mo and Pat Riot involve situations where the firearm was not the last one and therefore was placed on the staging table and any casing that appeared in an unusual manner on the carrier was seen either as they were approaching the next station, or at the next station before they fired the next firearm.

    Regardless, this is still GOOD information to know.

Right, my point is the shooter placed the rifle on the staging table, saw the case still in the carrier, knocked the empty case off, and than picked up the rifle to move to the unloading table.  Once the rifle was laid down on the staging table and the hand left the rifle, the penalty occurred.  If it wasn't the last firearm, you have the opportunity to go back and clear the case, before engaging with the next firearm in the string.

[J.S. Sooner, SASS #73526]

20 minutes ago, KH24 said:

Right, my point is the shooter placed the rifle on the staging table, saw the case still in the carrier, knocked the empty case off, and than picked up the rifle to move to the unloading table.  Once the rifle was laid down on the staging table and the hand left the rifle, the penalty occurred.  If it wasn't the last firearm, you have the opportunity to go back and clear the case, before engaging with the next firearm in the string.

That isn't stated in the rules. Only qualification is that "it must be cleared prior to it leaving the shooters hand(s) at the unloading table."

If you know of a rule that showed it differently, please advise where it may be found.

[Yusta B.]

3 hours ago, Father Kit Cool Gun Garth said:

 

KH24:

    Thank you for the additional clarification.

    The key is when the firearm leaves your possession.

    Unfortunately, the tales told by Yusta B., Allie Mo and Pat Riot involve situations where the firearm was not the last one and therefore was placed on the staging table and any casing that appeared in an unusual manner on the carrier was seen either as they were approaching the next station, or at the next station before they fired the next firearm.

    Regardless, this is still GOOD information to know.

 

For your new scenario, yes if it's the last gun shot.

If you would stop changing the scenario you wouldn't get conflicting answers.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

5 hours ago, KH24 said:

Right, my point is the shooter placed the rifle on the staging table, saw the case still in the carrier, knocked the empty case off, and than picked up the rifle to move to the unloading table.  Once the rifle was laid down on the staging table and the hand left the rifle, the penalty occurred.  If it wasn't the last firearm, you have the opportunity to go back and clear the case, before engaging with the next firearm in the string.

SASS Handbook version 21.8, page 24

Quote

Long guns will be cleared and discarded with their barrels pointed safely downrange. A 10-second minor safety penalty will be assessed if the firearm is not cleared. This condition may be corrected prior to the next round being fired. If the long gun is the last firearm used, it must be cleared prior to it leaving the shooters hand(s) at the unloading table. This does not apply to firearms shot out of sequence, made ―safe,‖ and then restaged. If the action of a long gun closes after being cleared, the shooter will, at the conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear to the TO. Appropriate penalties will be applied if it is not clear. No one other than the competitor may handle the firearm in question.

R.O. 1 ver 21.6, page 18

Quote

18. Long guns will be cleared and discarded with their barrels pointed safely downrange. A 10-second minor safety penalty will be assessed if the firearm is not cleared. This condition may be corrected prior to the next round being fired. If the long gun is the last firearm used, it must be cleared prior to it leaving the shooters hand(s) at the unloading table. This does not apply to firearms shot out of sequence, made ―safe,‖ and then restaged.
Examples:

• A. Shooter returns to the long gun and clears it before firing the next firearm and there is no UNFIRED round in the chamber — NO CALL.
• B. Shooter returns to the long gun and opens it at the end of the stage and an empty case/hull is ejected or found in the action or chamber — Minor Safety Violation.
• C. Shooter returns to the long gun and opens it, and a live/unfired round is ejected or in the chamber — Stage Disqualification for a long gun having left the shooter’s hand with the action closed, hammer cocked, with a live round in the chamber. In this case there is no opportunity to return to open it if called back before being committed to the next firearm -- the penalty applies the moment it left the shooter’s hand. Should someone other than the competitor open the action of the firearm; any penalties that would have been incurred are still applied.

 

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

15 hours ago, Dantankerous said:

What if...

 

A rifle case is ejected into the ejection port of a 97 shotgun AFTER the shotgun has been fired, although no one saw it do so?

That very scenario occurred on my posse several years ago. 

[Grey Beard]

On ‎2017‎-‎06‎-‎07 at 7:05 AM, Dantankerous said:

What if...

 

A rifle case is ejected into the ejection port of a 97 shotgun AFTER the shotgun has been fired, although no one saw it do so?

A couple years ago at Winter Range I had shot my 73 then moved to the shotgun which was some distance away.  When I leaned forward to pick up my 97 at least 6 of my rifle brass fell off my hat and 3 went into the loading port.  Once I finally got them all shook out of the action and finished the stage the TO informed me that there was no penalty for "bad luck" we all had a good laugh at my expense.  Now I stage my shotgun port down at all times.

 

Like PWB said earlier the empty has to come from the gun it was originally loaded in.