Mink Shoals Bandit, #49388 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I have had to MDQ 2 shooters in the last 15 years for the possibility of being "swept".... We have a common firing line with 7 stages and usually are running 2 posses . One MDQ was given to a shooter that went downrange to repair a target before the range was declared clear, (flag and horn system), I caught the individual about 5 steps out. The other was a "over zealous" brass picker who continually pushed their luck by stepping a few inches and then a little farther past the firing line.. They were warned twice and then MDQ'ed..... Don't know if they were actually "swept" by the other posse, but in my opinion they were at fault and were penalized for their actions. NOT the shooter on the line who was unaware of the problem. Haven't had any problems with them since or anyone else either. If a shooter or anyone else on a firing line can't get over their "cranial rectal syndrome" and be aware of their surroundings, they had better go home....... I'm sure a lot of you will cry "foul" and say I should have called a cease fire, blow horns and penalize someone else, but it all happens in just a second or two and you have to do what is best to minimize the danger and risk... The only way I would penalize the shooter if someone goes downrange and the shooter continued after told to "cease fire".... As PWB has mentioned, "let common sense prevail".......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundown Jones Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 When the range was built for Hell on Wheels at their location on Otto Road just outside Cheyenne, Wyoming construction for each stage was dozed out in the base of the hillside with berms all the way back to the firing line. The hillside rose several hundred feet above the backstops. Early in the 4th of July match, a couple of people (non shooters) walked up to the top of the hillside from the RV parking area that was west of the first stage and proceeded to walk across the back of the firing range while the competition was in progress just out of sight of the firing line. When they decided to move closer to the edge of the hillside, (evidently to watch the match) they were noticed and a complete range cease fire was immediately ordered and these people were cleared of the area. The match was then restarted. A severe dressing down was accomplished, another warning was issued to everyone on the range and nobody was MDQ. There were at least five stage shooters who could have and probably did, in one way or another sweep these careless spectators. The same logic could be applied to the other 5 stages where shooters were engaging targets. If I am wearing the prescribed cowboy hat, head down, eyeball on the sights of my rifle while engaging 10 targets, common sense would conclude that my field of vision upward to the hillside is very limited and the off chance of me seeing these people to avoid sweeping pretty unlikely. And PWB brings out a very good point of the loading and unloading tables, for I have witnessed (at different times and places) the loading table monitor exactly take a step behind the table, reach down and retrieve a dropped shell for a loader, sweeping himself across the barrel of loaded firearms being handles at and on the table. I don't recall the loader(s) being MDQ'd for these violations. Sometimes we reach a point of diminishing returns for trying to make so many rules that just plain common sense would eliminate. But of course, common sense is not a definable quantity that is distributed to each person in the same amount nor executed the same way each time it is needed. And it is compounded and compromised anytime it becomes a "group" decision From the very beginning of my CAS, I was taught and later taught to others that the RO/TO is supposed to assist the shooter safely through the course of fire, in this Quiz question why didn't they see this person inside the 170 and take the appropriate action? It would have been a simple call to stop the shooter, remove the offending person and restart the shooter clean rather than let the shooter continue and then MDQ later. As for the photographer downrange on the side of the berm that another posted, seems a good case of lack of common sense on everyone's part except the shooter (let me qualify: unless they were aware of the photographers presence before the buzzer and fired the first round) and especially the RO/TO and most of all the Match Director. If there had been an insurance investigator or rep present, somebody's policy would have been cancelled forewith. MDQ's, in cases as described in this thread and replying post, that were beyond the control of the shooter is not warranted. The first rule and the last rule is always SAFETY.........and that job is the responsibility of everyone present, bar none............................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korupt Karl Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I got a MDQ once because of stage/load table design. As I picked up my long guns from the load table a spotter was at the far end of the stage and unfortunately the load table was inside the parameters of the stage and I swept him. It was my responsibility to be aware, but it was poor placement of the LT as it should have been perpendicular to the stage and about 8 feet farther from the outside of the stage. KK Lesson learned on the "awareness" part of shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Any chance of getting Paul Harvey's "The Rest of the Story"? What, if anything, was done to the person who invaded the shooter's 170 zone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Think very hard! After shelling out all the money and effort would YOU stand by and accept a MDQ on the first stage at Winter Range or EOT because someone lost their hat down range and crossed the firing line to retrieve it when shooting a scenario that would require the shooter to sweep a firearm from one side of the stage to another? The person that violated the shooters 170 earns the MDQ. He/she created an unsafe act and needs to be escorted from the range. It is the shooters responsibility to ensure he/she does not violate the 170 NOT to keep others from entering the shooters 170. Based on what rule? The range rule that states that individuals that are unsafe and endanger themselves or others will be removed from the range. How can you hold the shooter responsible for another persons actions????? :( If the violator happens to be the child of a shooter who is running around the range unsupervised they both earn the MDQ and get to leave the range. You are gonna MDQ a child and his parent? Don't forget the child's brothers, sisters, mother, father and grandparents.................heck, assess the whole posse! SASS is a family activity but individuals that allow their children to go unsupervised on a live range and do not ensure that those children adhere to proper range safety rules shouldn't be there. Nothing is worse than a small child or dog for that matter that races down range when a shooter is on the line. Children that are participants and being properly supervised are a different matter. I'll shut up now before I type something that earns me a mark in Miss Allie's book :angry: :angry: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K.A.Mule,#50776 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Ok here goes! as each and every shooter is a safety officer I believe that the invader , if they are participating be assigned the match dq and an apology to shooter for putting them in a precarious situation. That being said who was the invader and why they were there would be dealt with by T/O. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K.A.Mule,#50776 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Sedalia you type way too fast for me. +++++++ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramblin Gambler Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Does it happen while the stage is in progress, or are we talking about when the shooter is bringing his guns to the line? If the spectator wasn't actually 'downrange' and was only inside the shooter's 170 because the shooter was behind the firing line, I say MDQ on the shooter because the barrel should have been pointed up. As with most things, the details matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 Think very hard! After shelling out all the money and effort would YOU stand by and accept a MDQ on the first stage at Winter Range or EOT because someone lost their hat down range and crossed the firing line to retrieve it when shooting a scenario that would require the shooter to sweep a firearm from one side of the stage to another? The person that violated the shooters 170 earns the MDQ. He/she created an unsafe act and needs to be escorted from the range. It is the shooters responsibility to ensure he/she does not violate the 170 NOT to keep others from entering the shooters 170. Based on what rule? The range rule that states that individuals that are unsafe and endanger themselves or others will be removed from the range. Again please sight the rule in the handbook How can you hold the shooter responsible for another persons actions????? :( If the violator happens to be the child of a shooter who is running around the range unsupervised they both earn the MDQ and get to leave the range. You are gonna MDQ a child and his parent? Don't forget the child's brothers, sisters, mother, father and grandparents.................heck, assess the whole posse! SASS is a family activity but individuals that allow their children to go unsupervised on a live range and do not ensure that those children adhere to proper range safety rules shouldn't be there. Nothing is worse than a small child or dog for that matter that races down range when a shooter is on the line. Children that are participants and being properly supervised are a different matter. Still looking for that ruling in the handbook I'll shut up now before I type something that earns me a mark in Miss Allie's book :angry: :angry: From the RO 1 Handbook pg. 25 the rules for a Match DQ MATCH DISQUALIFICATION • Two accumulated Stage Disqualifications or Two Spirit of the Game assessments. • Belligerent attitude / Unsportsman-like conduct. • Shooting under the influence of alcohol, prescription, or other medication that may impair the shooter’s physical or mental abilities. • Shooting illegal ammunition. This includes ammunition that exceeds the maximum velocity and shotgun shells that have been bottle-neck resized or ringed. This does not include ammunition that does not meet the power factor. • Dropping a loaded firearm. • Any discharge that hits the ground or stage prop less than five feet from the shooter, any discharge at the loading or unloading areas, or discharge that is deemed unsafe . • Note: Exception for declared expendable props. • Sweeping anyone with a loaded firearm. • Third offence, in the same match, for failure to adhere to the guidelines of the category in which the shooter is competing. • Interpersonal conflicts. Don't just make up the rules as you go along Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 This oughta be good for a page or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Money Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Sorry, PWB, I'm confused by your response. I can't get my cut/paste to work on the iPad tonight, but RO I, page 24 lists MDQ criteria. It clearly states "sweeping someone with a loaded firearm." There's no qualifier concerning whether person being swept is where he/she should or shouldn't be. Sounds like that could be a real underhanded way to "accidentally" get your competition DQ'd from a match. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Sounds like that could be a real underhanded way to "accidentally" get your competition DQ'd from a match. . . Won't work. REF post #s 12 & 16 BTW - The ROC is in general agreement on this one as a NO CALL situation regarding any penalties being assessed against the SHOOTER if this happens during stage engagement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Money Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Won't work. REF post #s 12 & 16 BTW - The ROC is in general agreement on this one as a NO CALL situation regarding any penalties being assessed against the SHOOTER. Oh, I agree. My comment was predicated upon there being no common sense allowed (which thankfully isn't the case), and several people saying that they WOULD in fact DQ the shooter, based on a literal interpretation of the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 How about we send them all home on this one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5AW-LHL3J4 Stupid is as stupid does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aunt Jen Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Good discussion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 Won't work. REF post #s 12 & 16 BTW - The ROC is in general agreement on this one as a NO CALL situation regarding any penalties being assessed against the SHOOTER if this happens during stage engagement. Just so I'm clear in my thinking, it is a NO CALL on the SHOOTER, got it What penalty if any can/should be assessed for the individual that encroaches into the shooters 170 during the stage engagement? PS: I always liked the color BLUE.................it's very calming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Most Wanted Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I have seen people including myself have to encroach on a shooters 170 to facilitate spotting around props and such. I try to stay on the shooters weak side as to not be in their line of sight. I would hope that would be a no call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundown Jones Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Imho, Another shooter, who has reason to be near the firing line fulfilling an assignment (which can only be a spotter) who encroached upon the shooter's 170 during the stage engagement should receive a "safety warning" from the RO responsible for that stage or posse and advise the posse that another such occurrence will result in MDQ of any offending individual (for creating an unsafe situation likely to cause serious injury or death). Even if the RO/TO suspects ulterior motives of someone who crosses the firing line causing interference during the stage engagement, the first occurrence should only be a "warning". If such understanding is made plain and simple at the "shooters meeting" before the match begins, no "first occurrence warning" is necessary. That may seem to many people as a very harsh penalty but (imho) would fit the circumstances because of the threat of serious injury or death for either stupidity or intentional actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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