Something to be aware of

[DocWard]

http://tbo.com/list/columns-tjackson/jackson-gun-owner-unarmed-unwelcome-in-maryland-20140112/

[Tascosa, SASS# 24838]

Badge heavy cop. Seems the good cops (99.9%) never get any publicity. The answer... Call this jerks chief and ask what was done to the officer so this won't happen again. and DEMAND a faceto face apology from that officer in front of the family.

[DocWard]

Badge heavy cop. Seems the good cops (99.9%) never get any publicity. The answer... Call this jerks chief and ask what was done to the officer so this won't happen again. and DEMAND a faceto face apology from that officer in front of the family.

 

I agree wholeheartedly, but I have many questions and problems. The thing I find most curious is that there is an ongoing investigation, but the gentleman has received two apologies. If there is an investigation, how do they know they need to apologize for anything? Trying to head off a lawsuit?

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Bad apples will always exist....sad and worrisome for us that have a CCW it seems.

 

GG ~

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

All it sounds like it would have taken to avoid the search and extra cops was for the wife to know where the gun was.

IE he should have told her that he did not have the gun with him.

If her story had been in agreement with him it probably wouldn't have gone so far.

Because she said things that were different than he said it was a problem for a frightened cop.

He couldn't account for a gun that might be there.

 

Biggest problem is that his home state provided the concept of a carry permit or gun ownership relating to the check on his

cars registration plates or on his drivers license. (DL would be my guess.)

 

In some counties in CO the sheriffs office which issues carry permits place information about carry permits in a "file of interested information" about people.

So it turns up when a check is made about a DL.

My County Sheriff claimed not to do this.

[Blackwater 53393]

The issue here is that the man was apparently stopped only because he had been issued a carry permit, and that from another state. That information should NOT be grounds for a stop. That the department is already apologizing smacks of over-reach on the part of the officer. Officers like this one will find any reason to stop and harass permit holders until policy is introduced to protect the rights of people traveling for legitimate purposes from such harassment.

 

The officer in question should be chastised publicly and made to publicly apologize to the man and his family, as should his immediate supervisor. There should be someone there to say, "Wait a minute! This is wrong!"

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

The issue here is that the man was apparently stopped only because he had been issued a carry permit, and that from another state. That information should NOT be grounds for a stop. That the department is already apologizing smacks of over-reach on the part of the officer. Officers like this one will find any reason to stop and harass permit holders until policy is introduced to protect the rights of people traveling for legitimate purposes from such harassment.

 

The officer in question should be chastised publicly and made to publicly apologize to the man and his family, as should his immediate supervisor. There should be someone there to say, "Wait a minute! This is wrong!"

 

Blackwater, you should really reread the article.

Cop tailed car.

Cop caused Car to stop.

License and registration, cop returned to his vehicle.

Cop came back to stopped car and then did illegal search for gun.

 

Note he did NOT start off with search for gun.

Normally carry permits are issued to people NOT cars.

[Echeconnee Drifter]

And the proper response is!

 

Am I being detained?

 

Until that question is answered with a "yes" you say nothing else. After that point, the only thing you say is, "I have no comments until I've spoken with an attorney."

 

Nothing you can say to the police will ever help you if you're being detained. Anything you say to the police if you're not being detained can result in you being detained. The best thing to do is just to say nothing.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

And the proper response is!

 

Am I being detained?

 

Until that question is answered with a "yes" you say nothing else. After that point, the only thing you say is, "I have no comments until I've spoken with an attorney."

 

Nothing you can say to the police will ever help you if you're being detained. Anything you say to the police if you're not being detained can result in you being detained. The best thing to do is just to say nothing.

Anydangtime a LEO stops you-YOU are be'n 'detained'--Pretty simple

LG

[Echeconnee Drifter]

Anydangtime a LEO stops you-YOU are be'n 'detained'--Pretty simple

 

Generally speaking, yes, but not always. There's plenty of videos out there (I won't go looking for any right now) where a cop is harassing some one, and he repeatedly asks "Am I being detained?" The cop refuses to answer, because he knows if he says "no" the guy will just walk away and if he says "yes" and doesn't have a legitimate reason he's in a load of hot water.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

 

Generally speaking, yes, but not always. There's plenty of videos out there (I won't go looking for any right now) where a cop is harassing some one, and he repeatedly asks "Am I being detained?" The cop refuses to answer, because he knows if he says "no" the guy will just walk away and if he says "yes" and doesn't have a legitimate reason he's in a load of hot water.

Ah-yes, the 'internet' again makes everydangbody an 'x-pert

LG

[Echeconnee Drifter]

Ah-yes, the 'internet' again makes everydangbody an 'x-pert

 

That's a fair point, but I believe what I wrote above stands. In any group of people (and law enforcement is no exception) there are always people who break the rules.

[Dubious Don #56333]

Anydangtime a LEO stops you-YOU are be'n 'detained'--Pretty simple

LG

Not exactly;

If you are stopped the context DOES matter. "Come here, I want to talk to you." That language in and of itself could be construed as a "detention" if the person being addressed feels they HAVE NO CHOICE. On the other side, " Could I speak to you a moment?" is NOT, in and of itself coercive, merely a request. In order to detain someone police need to have, at the very least reasonable suspicion that criminal acts/intentions are afoot. Police can talk to anyone they choose (or not to) and they do tell people one thing and have intentions otherwise but please remember who, 99.9% of the time who they usually deal with. Criminals, criminals who lie and the like and since they have no crystal ball they tend to treat everyone the same until they determine otherwise.

 

Getting behind a car and turning on the lights and tooting the siren to make them stop IS in fact, a detention. To do that police should have reasonable suspicion or probable cause and beyond providing a driver's license/ID and registration and insurance, drivers do not have an obligation to answer questions further. Passengers in the vehicle, unless they are suspected (reasonable suspicion/probable cause) of having committed a crime do not, in most jurisdictions, have to provide their ID or answer any questions whatsoever. An officer who stops a vehicle and, after running a records check is entirely within his rights at that point to disarm that person until he is finished. It does n't, under most circumstances, entitle him to search beyond the driver or his immediate control. Once the driver has been asked to step out and on to the sidewalk for example that 'immediate control' bit goes right out the window as far as the car is concerned. In other words, a search of the car at that point, depending on some variables, may in fact be a fourth amendment violation.

 

Generally speaking, if you get stopped for say, speeding and the officer asks how fast you were going clamming up and playing the 'I ain't gonna answer unless my lawyer is here' game is only going to do one thing; guarantee you an expensive ticket. If you give some stupid excuse that's probably going to do it too. If however you are polite and say you have no idea or answer HONESTLY (how about that!) like you are in an unfamiliar area and didn't know what the speed limit was or, you just weren't paying attention or perhaps you were passing another car, most police, being reasonable people themselves, will perhaps cut you a break. Perhaps a warning, maybe just a break on the ticket by writing it for a lesser speed so the fine is 168 bucks not 240 for example.

 

Lets talk about the other side of the spectrum. You use a firearm in self defense. The cops show up and, not knowing who's who or what's what the police will naturally assume the worst until they determine different. Let me be clear about this; I have several friends, some of whom did time who ran afoul of the law and perhaps said more to the cops than they should have. One friend, a retired member of my own department narrowly avoided prison and accepted a plea to probation for defending what he perceived to be a lethal threat to his life. The downside to that is he is now a FELON and cannot possess firearms. Ever. So, what you say to the police means A LOT. Playing the clam up game or lie may very well cost you a lot. On the other hand, spilling your guts and running off at the mouth can cost you too. You have rights, USE'EM! I would suggest the minimum in the above case "I felt my life to be in imminent danger and I defended myself. Now if you please, I'm a bit shaken up and before I give a statement I would like some time to calm myself and...speak to my attorney. THEN play the clam up game.

No I ain't a lawyer....

[Sedalia Dave]

A lawsuit should insure that this does not happen again in Maryland. A sad but too often true aspect of our society that only hitting them in the pocket book has any effect.

The Illegal detention and searches of not only the car but all of his family members including the children. Humiliation of not only himself but his family. All of this added together should make a contingency fee lawyer more than willing to take the case.

[Subdeacon Joe]

"On the other side, " Could I speak to you a moment?" is NOT, in and of itself coercive, merely a request."

 

When said by someone with a badge and a uniform, most reasonable people will see it as an order, a requirement rather than a request.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

D'Don, because of former 'life'. Trust me, I know the what 'detained' is.

 

LG

[Dubious Don #56333]

"On the other side, " Could I speak to you a moment?" is NOT, in and of itself coercive, merely a request."

 

When said by someone with a badge and a uniform, most reasonable people will see it as an order, a requirement rather than a request.

AH-HA!! And there's be the rub;

A police, with the shiny badges and guns and flashy lights and...stuff cut an imposing 'figure of authority'. One's mere presence can be enough. And then, in the cold, bright light of a court room a simple "Can I talk to you please?" becomes and order in the mind of the defendant (because it might be in his best interest to do so legally speaking) to claim it felt like an order rather than a request.

 

The best part is its not just the officer; the court, prosecutor, defense, JURY...they decide what the truth is or isn't. As it should be.

[Subdeacon Joe]

AH-HA!! And there's be the rub;

A police, with the shiny badges and guns and flashy lights and...stuff cut an imposing 'figure of authority'. One's mere presence can be enough. And then, in the cold, bright light of a court room a simple "Can I talk to you please?" becomes and order in the mind of the defendant (because it might be in his best interest to do so legally speaking) to claim it felt like an order rather than a request.

 

The best part is its not just the officer; the court, prosecutor, defense, JURY...they decide what the truth is or isn't. As it should be.

 

Not just in "the cold, bright light of a court room" DD. You have it right - "figure of authority" on the street. The, "I have to do what the good officer is TELLING me to do" mindset that is drummed into us by society when one is stopped/hailed/detained/approached by a LEO with uniform, badge of authority, and gun, and the power of the State to back it up.

 

It isn't quite the same as when sitting in a diner one says, "Can you pass me your ketchup, please, there's none at the is table?"