38-40 Bullet engaging rifling

[Mad Dog McGee]

Having shot 38-40 for a while and have no problems with my reloads ; until now ! I've re-loaded hundreds of rounds using the same bullet, so after having my 1863 rifle short-stroked and a action job on it I can't chamber a round with out it engaging the rifling on the ogive of the bullet . Right before the cartridge rim seats the lever is harder to close .

YES I've checked OAL, adjusted dies, used different bullets, to no avail. I tried Black Hills new ammo with no problem .

I'm at a loss as to why this is happening. Never had a problem until I had it short-stroked. The gunsmith ( a good pard and excellent smith) is also scratching his head.

The bullet of the BH is a little slimmer on the ogive; and IF I had never used the bullets (Spacecoast) that I've re-loaded with before , with 0 problems , I'd say it had to be bullet ogive design. I have no ideal as to what to do. Maybe having the chamber lengthened or something ?

 

IS there ANY way that by having it short-stroked that it would cause the bullet to engage the lands and grooves ?

 

I hope someone can offer some advice as to what the problem is. Thanks in advance, MDM

 

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Sure. Putting in a short stroke kit changes the toggle links. The links affect (control) the headspace on the gun. Most likely your gun had more headspace before the work than it does now. Since the BH factory ammo works fine in the gun now, headspace probably is not way too small. Meaning the problem now is your load. Although it worked with the gun before, it is a little too long now that there is smaller headspace.

 

Have the gunsmith check what the headspace is now, just to make sure. But, it's probably the load you have been shooting, and you will need to load to a shorter OAL to prevent shoving the bullet into the rifling, or switch to a more suitable bullet. (If you don't fix this, sooner or later you will rip a slug out of the cartridge case when you extract a loaded round, either on purpose or because you are running fast and don't drop the hammer before you start levering in the next round. Then you will be facing a jam as you try to lever in the next round.)

 

If headspace is too tight now, the short stroke kit maker can supply slightly shorter links that get the headspace to the right setup.

 

But, yes, this is one of the side effects that shortstroking a 73 often has.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Three Foot Johnson]

I would say the headspace has changed, which means it was slightly excessive before.

 

The problem of the bullet engaging the rifling before being fully chambered on several of my .38-40's was aggravating, and I tried several different bullet designs before coming across NEI's 401-195-WCF mold.

[Earl Brasse, SASS #3562]

So I'm not alone after all.

 

I have 4 '73's in 38-40 & in 3 out of 4 the Magma style bullet has the same problem, engages the rifling about .095.

 

Looks like I need to check the headspace on the 4th one.

 

All mine are very early in the 38-40 Uberti production run.

 

It would be interesting to know when / if Uberti fixed the problem.

 

Or is it strictly a mold style(Magma) problem, but that seems to be what many of the commercial casters use?

 

Old style Lyman 40143 with BP works fine. Only thing is it's a crimp over the ogive style so not the best for smokeless.

 

I shoot BP but came into a huge pile of hard-cast Magma style & thought I would shoot these smokeless for WB.

 

 

I'm looking at getting the throats reamed.

 

 

J-Bar does that NEI mold work well with BP ?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Yep, opening the leade section of the rifling (right in front of the neck of the chamber) will solve the problem, too. I don't have a 38-40 to check (just 44-40s, which have not shown me this problem), but Uberti probably uses the same chambering reamer design on all their .38-40 production. A good gunsmith will be able to fix it that way, but it will most likely require dismounting the barrel (that will be the major portion of the charge).

 

Good luck, GJ

[Three Foot Johnson]

So I'm not alone after all.

 

J-Bar does than NEI mold work well with BP ?

Yes it does. There is a possible problem with this bullet with smokeless - the first batch I loaded up telescoped back into the case in the mag tube upon firing because apparently is a bore rider or semi bore rider design, meaning from the crimp groove forward, the bullet is bore diameter/smaller in diameter than the rearward part and my crimp die wouldn't apply a severe enough crimp to get the case mouth fully into the groove. Another one I tried worked fine - I think one is RCBS and one is LEE...?

[Mad Dog McGee]

Well that's kinda what I thought; I took NEW Starline brass , loaded it to the crimp groove (which I cannot change) , even made the OAL shorter then the BH cartridge, and still had the problem. I'm thinking that I'll try to get the original parts back in and chunk the short stroke kit . I'll just have to live with it I guess.

I may try another bullet as a last resort. Sure wish that I knew this BEFORE having it short stroked !

The only other thing I could do is trim the cases down ; but then reloading becomes a royal pain.

Money , time and aggravation all the way; all this while trying to have fun shooting!!

At least I'm not alone in all this; I really appreciate all the help though ; you fellows are great! MDM

[gunrunner joe #17093]

Call me i found out what the trouble is after a year of playing with one 919-585-4558

[Earl Brasse, SASS #3562]

What would concern me is what J-Bar said .

 

You might want to check the headspace both with the short-stroke kit & without it.

 

If the headspace was way off but it "was working fine before", it may not be something you would want to go back to.

 

I would say the headspace has changed, which means it was slightly excessive before.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

A couple of bullet designs that should work in your gun, if you want a nice set of molds from a great outfit, would be the Accurate

- # 40-190C which is a round nose flat point

- # 40-175C which is a truncated cone flat point/

 

The latter would be my choice, as it is lighter (less recoil) and the truncated cone design gets the ogive out of the rifling very fast due to the constant taper from the crimp groove to the nose flat (meplat).

 

Your gunsmith should have known about ALL of the possible things that putting in the short stroke kit would do. He made a good attempt, it sounds like, but didn't consider all the possible side effects. A change in headspace is a well-known problem when short stroking a toggle gun.

And, asking here could have gotten you some answers.

 

I would not think seriously about taking the SS kit out. You want it to run well. You just need a little more work on the details. You probably will not be satisfied with the gun knowing that you have given up some speed to go back to the original links and lifter arm.

 

Trimming your cases as a long term solution? What happens when you get someone else's case back at a match? Or need to buy some new? More headaches than it would be worth, IMHO! Just pick a good bullet.

 

Good luck, GJ

[August West, SASS #45079]

I chased this problem around for a couple of years. Getting advice not unlike some of the suggestions here. Essentially, the ideas put forth are work-arounds to the fundamental problem, which is that Uberti 38-40 rifles are manufactured with short throats. The problem is the chambering of the rifle. If you address that directly, your problem will go away. Or, you can be like me and try to work around it until you finally get exasperated and stop using the rifle.

 

So, one day after complaining repeatedly on the Cast Boolets website, a feller comes along and says, "Stop goofing around and get a chamber reamer from Manson and lengthen the throat."

 

So, I did. Barrel had to be dismounted and a serious lathe was required to run the reamer into the chamber. But, the problems all went away and the cost was reasonable.

 

If you get serious about the problem, and get a gunsmith lined up, let me know and you can borrow my reamer.

[August West, SASS #45079]

Rifle has been problem free since doing the job right.

[Mad Dog McGee]

To All, Thanks for the great advice! It makes sense that the chamber is short throated , and that Uberti rifles come with a long headspace. That I didn't know. I made a call to my gunsmith and awaiting his return call.

 

I think that the way to go is to have the rifle chamber reamed ; it'll cost more money but will be worth it to be able to load the bullet of my choice.

Thanks August West for the offer; if my smith doesn't have one , I'll take you up on it .

I also have a Uberti saddle shorty in .357; if I get it short stroked will I have to go through this again? Sure wish Uberti would address this problem; it'll make like a whole lot better. Thanks again Pards, MDM

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

MDM, the makers of short stroke links usually have several different sets available to increase or decrease headspace in problem guns. You may very well be able to swap the links back to the maker for a set that will give you back the headspace you had to start with (as long as it is not excessive).

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

 

I also have a Uberti saddle shorty in .357; if I get it short stroked will I have to go through this again?

You probably shoot .38 specials through that gun. That gives you an extra 100 thousandths inch of room for "long fat" bullet ogives in your cartridge.

 

Even if you shoot .357, that .357 chamber dimension most likely gives you room for a lot of bullet nose, as the standard bullet in .357 is (was for many years anyway) the 158 grain round nose. Almost no chance you would have bullet noses jamming into the rifling in that chamber, even if some sloppy headspace got taken out by the new set of links.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Marauder SASS #13056]

The 357 mag rifles generally don't have that problem since they are set up for only that caliber - and not trying to use tools for the 38-40, 44-40, 45 Colt, etc. They may have a problem with too long of headspace, but not usually. But they can after being short stroked sometimes.

 

Another reason most of us never have a problem with the 357 rifles is that we normally only shoot the shorter 38 Specials in them:D

[Mad Dog McGee]

DUH!! I feel like an idiot about the .357 !! Of course I'll be shooting .38's in it and not many .357's.

This headspace thing has got my head really SPACED OUT! HA!!!!

I'll talk this over with my smith and come up with something now that I know what the problem is , it should be easy to fix one way or the other.

Thanks again Pards for your help ! That's one of the reasons why this sport and SASS Wire is so Great! MDM

[Middlefork Bob, SASS #53945]

To All, Thanks for the great advice! It makes sense that the chamber is short throated , and that Uberti rifles come with a long headspace. That I didn't know. I made a call to my gunsmith and awaiting his return call.

 

I think that the way to go is to have the rifle chamber reamed ; it'll cost more money but will be worth it to be able to load the bullet of my choice.

Thanks August West for the offer; if my smith doesn't have one , I'll take you up on it .

I also have a Uberti saddle shorty in .357; if I get it short stroked will I have to go through this again? Sure wish Uberti would address this problem; it'll make like a whole lot better. Thanks again Pards, MDM

I am having this exact same problem with mine, a vintage Uberti 73 38-40 that was a safe queen for the previous owner. I was going to send my Cimarron 38-40 pistols to Long hunter for tune ups and was going to ask him if he could lengthen the throat on my rifle as well. If you find someone to do it PM me his information I may send him my gun as well or if Longhunter can do it maybe he can do both our guns.

[Middlefork Bob, SASS #53945]

Just got off the phone with Cody Conagher and he is well aware of this issue with Uberti 73 rifles chambered for 38-40. He said he has reamed 30 or 40 of them. Boxing mine up and sending it to him this week.

[Mad Dog McGee]

Also talked to Cody today , he told me that Uberti is well aware of the short throat problem, and will not do anything about it. My rifle is going out to him tomorrow ! He said no problem to ream it to the right length.

Maybe if enough of us got a letter off to Uberti : maybe they would fix the problem.

Thanks again to everyone that responded to my post, I'll give an update when I get my rifle back from Cody. He's a real nice pard; met him at the Florida Shot Show in '07. MDM