Rules Question

[TN Mongo, SASS #61450]

What’s the call? (This happened at today’s shoot) A shooter was completing a stage by shooting 4 shotgun knock-down targets. The last KD did not fall right away so the shooter loaded another round into his 97. Before he pulled the trigger, the target fell over. The shooter lowered the hammer of his shotgun and ejected the round.

 

The stage Timer Operator was still supervising the shooter and had not turned away to check with spotters or talk to the scorer. The Time Operator stated that the shooter should have gotten his OK to lower the hammer on the round and awarded the shooter a stage DQ.

 

The two questions open to interpretation are as follows:

 

1. Was the shooter still “under direct supervision of the Timer Operator” when he

lowered the hammer, or, did he need the verbal permission of the Timer

Operator before lowering the hammer?

 

2. Under #8 of the RO 1 Handbook: Were his actions OK by applying the

sentence? “Shotgun shells may be removed, if necessary, without penalty in

order to return the firearm to a safe condition.”

 

 

SAFETY PRACTICES FIRST, LAST, AND ALWAYS

Shooter’s Handbook P. 23

 

7. De-cocking may not be done to avoid a penalty if cocked at the wrong time, position

or location once a round has gone down range. NO gun may be de-cocked on the

firing line except by pointing it down range and pulling the trigger or while under the

direct supervision of a stage officer. The penalty for de-cocking is a Stage

Disqualification.

8. Once a revolver is cocked, the round under the hammer must be expended in order

for it to be returned to a safe condition. Once a rifle is cocked, either the round under

the hammer must be expended or the action opened in order for the rifle to be

returned to a safe condition. Shotgun shells may be removed, if necessary, without

penalty in order to return the firearm to a safe condition.

 

 

RO 1 Handbook P. 16 APPENDIX A - RANGE SAFETY RULES

 

7. De-cocking may not be done to avoid a penalty if cocked at the wrong time, position

Or location once a round has gone down range. NO gun may be de-cocked on the

firing line except by pointing it down range and pulling the trigger or while under the

direct supervision of the Timer Operator. The penalty for de-cocking is a Stage

Disqualification.

8. Once a revolver is cocked, the round under the hammer must be expended in order

for it to be returned to a safe condition. Once a rifle is cocked, either the round under

the hammer must be expended or the action opened in order for the rifle to be

returned to a safe condition. Shotgun shells may be removed without penalty to

return the firearm to a safe condition.

[Jack Houston # 35508]

should have pushed the button on the side of a '97 and ejected the shell from the gun!!!

 

SDQ!!!

[Jacknife]

Mongo, maybe shooter just lowered it enuf to get slide to work to unload the round.

[Grizzly Dave]

The way I have always understood "or while under the direct supervision of the Timer Operator. " it means that the TO tells you to do it, or at least knows what you are doing.

 

SDQ.

[Max Montana, SASS #23907]

No call.

[TN Mongo, SASS #61450]

Jack Houston said what many of us said at the shoot. After looking at rules carefully when I got home, it appears to me that the rules are a little vague, or are open to interpretation, on this case.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Related question:

 

if the shooter pointed the SG downrange and pulled the trigger (as allowed in Rule #7), is the SDQ earned because he lowered the hammer and not let it 'free fall'?

 

I would think either way, the shooter decocked the SG and would not earn any penalty as long as the SG was pointed downrange.

 

PWB will probably have to chime in for this one.

 

 

..........Widder

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

NO gun may be de-cocked on the firing line except by pointing it down range and pulling the trigger or while under the

direct supervision of a stage officer. The penalty for de-cocking is a Stage

Disqualification.

 

This is subject to interpretation? Direct supervision is a pretty simple concept. In this case, while the shooter had no requirement to shoot the s/g; he unfortunately acted without direct supervision and de-cocked the gun.

 

Safety is safety and a live round under the hammer is not subject to any interpretation. It is what it is and the rule is pretty simple.

 

Yeah, he could have pushed the button and ejected the round. A SXS could have simply opened the gun and dumped the live round. It happens all the time. But, the SXS shooter with hammers CAN NOT DE-COCK EITHER!

 

At a monthly he may just get a quiet talk. But, at a Annual, State or higher the call is the call. Protest it if you have a spare $50.

 

Sorry, but this is a simple call- SDQ. Bummer- take your long guns to the unloading table.

 

NEXT SHOOTER

[Rio Brazos Kid]

Under the rules today, if you have to make-up a shotgun target, it is permissable to load two, just in case you miss again. If the first shot is sufficient, you simply either shoot it down range, or eject it. Either way is legal and is done all the time.

 

What he did that MAY not be legal is to have lowered the hammer first, before ejecting the shell. As stated Pale Wolf needs to clarify this.

 

RBK

[Jacknife]

The shooter lowered the hammer of his shotgun and ejected the round.

 

The stage Timer Operator was still supervising the shooter

 

1. Was the shooter still “under direct supervision of the Timer Operator”

 

Ya just stated that operator was still supervising shooter.

 

 

RO1 Handbook P. 16 APPENDIX A - RANGE SAFETY RULES

 

7. NO gun may be de-cocked on the

firing line except by pointing it down range and pulling the trigger or while under the

direct supervision of the Timer Operator.

 

 

Looks to me that ya answered your own question.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

Looks to me that ya answered your own question.

Well.... actually he offered an opinion about whether or not the shooter was under the supervision of the TO.

 

From what it reads, it happens that the TO did not agree that the shooter was under his supervision. Who knows what the TO was trying to control at that moment. He does have the clock and a more than tacit responsibility for the control of the stage.

 

The TO told the shooter that he should have waited until DIRECTED. That would be the definition of DIRECT supervision. The TO then awarded the penalty.

 

Seems pretty clear that he was under a different opinion.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I you read #7, you could say that it is giving the definition of decocking BY pointing it downrange and pulling the trigger. The mere act of lowering the hammer while pulling the trigger IS decocking and doing such an act while pointing downrange is allowable.

 

How else would the shooter 'decock'?

 

Don't overlook the word 'OR' in the latter part of that guideline.

 

 

..........Widder

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

How else would the shooter 'decock'?

..........Widder

Now come'on, Widder.... HE WOULDN'T DECOCK. That's the point. He'd just push the stinkin' button on the side of that rattletraptionbentforthesalvageyardpos'97 and rack the slide.

 

Don't tell me that you haven't done it yourownself about 11tyjillion times!

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Howdy Bro.King.

 

I can't argue bout meowndangself , but I'm trying to read the rule as is.

 

It appears to me to actually be giving the guideline to decock the firearm.

 

You could change the wording to say:

"it is legal to decock a firearm on the firing line by pointing it downrange 'OR' while under the direct supervision of the TO" and it would mean the same thing, wouldn't it?

 

Like I mentioned earlier, PWB will surely chime in on this

 

 

..........Widder

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

There are 97s without the side button bolt release thus precluding that option. I believe one of the latest IAC 97s also lacks the button.

 

Without a button one must either lower the hammer with the thumb controlling it's downward arc whilst releasing it by manipulating the trigger OR just pulling the trigger and going bang. He did the former, should have done the latter. That is, if he lacked a button. If he had a button should have used it to rack out the live round.

[Blastmaster]

NO gun may be de-cocked on the firing line except by pointing it down range and pulling the trigger or while under the

direct supervision of a stage officer. The penalty for de-cocking is a Stage

Disqualification.

 

This is subject to interpretation? Direct supervision is a pretty simple concept. In this case, while the shooter had no requirement to shoot the s/g; he unfortunately acted without direct supervision and de-cocked the gun.

 

Safety is safety and a live round under the hammer is not subject to any interpretation. It is what it is and the rule is pretty simple.

 

Yeah, he could have pushed the button and ejected the round. A SXS could have simply opened the gun and dumped the live round. It happens all the time. But, the SXS shooter with hammers CAN NOT DE-COCK EITHER!

 

At a monthly he may just get a quiet talk. But, at a Annual, State or higher the call is the call. Protest it if you have a spare $50.

 

Sorry, but this is a simple call- SDQ. Bummer- take your long guns to the unloading table.

 

NEXT SHOOTER

 

Yer right!!

 

If he would've used the button on the side to open the action and eject the round, then it would have been fine & dandy and no penalty. OR!!!!!waited for more specific directions from the RO on how to proceed.

 

Blastmaster

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

Related question:

 

if the shooter pointed the SG downrange and pulled the trigger (as allowed in Rule #7), is the SDQ earned because he lowered the hammer and not let it 'free fall'?

 

I would think either way, the shooter decocked the SG and would not earn any penalty as long as the SG was pointed downrange.

 

PWB will probably have to chime in for this one.

 

 

..........Widder

I hear what yer saying. The TO was there (supervision?), he de-cocked and then ejected the round making the gun safe. Easy to understand rules for pistol, rifle and SXS, might be a little gray area here for the 97. Think I'll just wait on PW.

 

Jefro

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

"...pointing it downrange and pulling the trigger..." would have resulted in the round in the chamber being FIRED.

 

Easing the hammer down while pulling the trigger (still pointed safely downrange) is what is meant by DE-COCKING

(i.e. NOT "dry firing" on an empty chamber OR actually FIRING the round under the hammer at the time).

 

Shooter should have either asked permission or notified the T/O (to make certain he was "under direct supervision")

Best practice would be for the shooter to know how to operate his equipment.

 

(FWIW - exact same thing happened at our monthly match today...slow falling KD...shooter reloaded; then simply pushed the "stinkin' button" to eject that extra round before heading to the ULT).

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

There are 97s without the side button bolt release thus precluding that option. I believe one of the latest IAC 97s also lacks the button.

Yo, DAWG! Are you saying that some genius is saving money building a pump shotgun in these litigious times that can't be safely opened with a live round in the chamber?

 

REALLY? Ok... I haven't seen them all.. only about 2-3k of them... but just in case that's true?

 

DO NOT BUY ONE OF THESE

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

And the difference between just pulling the trigger and pulling the trigger and catching the hammer on the way down with the thumb is what? I guess one fired round, but is there a safety issue if 97 is pointed down range? In addition to some 97s not having the button, on many, the button doesn't work well, at least on a couple of mine that is the case.

[Jacknife]

Would someone please post a pic of one without the button.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

In addition to some 97s not having the button, on many, the button doesn't work well, at least on a couple of mine that is the case.

Probably wanna get that looked at just in case this TO is on your posse or it might leave a mark.

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Yo, DAWG! Are you saying that some genius is saving money building a pump shotgun in these litigious times that can't be safely opened with a live round in the chamber?

 

REALLY? Ok... I haven't seen them all.. only about 2-3k of them... but just in case that's true?

 

DO NOT BUY ONE OF THESE

 

That is exactly what I am saying. And I DO want one. But then I want one of everything...

[Marauder SASS #13056]

IAC sold a 97W that was sorta like the old C model 97's in that it did not have buttons on the left and right cartridge stops that can be used to easily unload the magazine. But it does have the "Action slide lock release". I know because I just looked at mine to make sure.

 

I do know know of any 97 that does not have the button to allow the action to be opened without dropping the hammer.

 

Now, some guns may stick worse than others. In such a case the shooter should know that, explain it to the TO and ask to drop the hammer or fire the last round off the clock.

[Marshal Too Tall, SASS #36690]

Wait a minute. Where does it say one has to ask permission? It says the shooter must be under direct supervision of the TO which he was. The TO was watching the shooter so wouldn't he be under supervision?

As long as the gun was pointing down range and the shooter did decock under supervision I think that the rules are unclear and should be a no call.

 

 

...Too Tall...

[Jacknife]

If the slide release button doesn't work on your gun, fix the dang thang!!! No place for faulty equipment in this game. And no excuse for shooting it either.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

IAC sold a 97W that was sorta like the old C model 97's in that it did not have buttons on the left and right cartridge stops that can be used to easily unload the magazine. But it does have the "Action slide lock release".

 

I know because I just looked at mine to make sure.

 

...

 

I have a "first year of production" model 1897 (no letter) in that same configuration (I went & looked at mine, too).

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Wait a minute. Where does it say one has to ask permission? It says the shooter must be under direct supervision of the TO which he was. The TO was watching the shooter so wouldn't he be under supervision?

As long as the gun was pointing down range and the shooter did decock under supervision I think that the rules are unclear and should be a no call.

 

 

...Too Tall...

 

What I said was:

"Shooter should have either asked permission OR notified the T/O (to make certain he was "under direct supervision")"

[Marshal Too Tall, SASS #36690]

It seems to me that we are all concerned for safety and in this case the barrel was pointed downrange so if the round had gone bang there would not been a problem other than adding to the shooters time. What is the difference of being under supervision or/and unloading the shotgun safely?

 

 

...Too Tall..

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

I dunno... but I'm guessing that the difference is the rule? Did I get it right? And is "IN THIS CASE" a good application of safety rules? Or maybe safety rules are meant for ALL CASES so that errors in judgement become a bit harder to make.

 

Huh... bet that's why they have penalties for violating rules. After all, it's no problem sweeping anyone as long as the gun is empty, right? No.. whups that's wrong, too.

 

OK.. I give... what's the difference?

[Rio Brazos Kid]

It would be interesting to me if PW would firmly state what his options actually were.

 

This is my understanding, but I'd like a confirmation from PW.

 

1) Simply dump the shot down range. I see it done all the time. (Could slightly affect his total time).

 

2) If it has a release button, press it and eject the round.

 

3) If no release button, and didn't use option 1, then inquire the TO for instructions.

 

Is this correct, or is it not????

 

RBK

[Jacknife]

 

2) If it has a release button, press it and eject the round.

 

3) If no release button, and didn't use option 1, then inquire the TO for instructions.

 

Is this correct, or is it not????

 

RBK

 

 

Kid, I'm still waiting on a pic of one WITHOUT the release button.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

It would be interesting to me if PW would firmly state what his options actually were.

 

This is my understanding, but I'd like a confirmation from PW.

 

1) Simply dump the shot down range. I see it done all the time. (Could slightly affect his total time).

 

2) If it has a release button, press it and eject the round.

 

3) If no release button, and didn't use option 1, then inquire the TO for instructions.

 

Is this correct, or is it not????

RBK

 

YES...up to the point where the shooter has to ask the T/O how to clear his shotgun.

...as I stated previously...shooter should confirm that he is actually "under the direct supervision" of the T/O, either by inquiry or by statement.

[J.D.Ironsmith]

NO gun may be de-cocked on the firing line except by pointing it down range and pulling the trigger or while under the

direct supervision of a stage officer. The penalty for de-cocking is a Stage

Disqualification.

 

This is subject to interpretation? Direct supervision is a pretty simple concept. In this case, while the shooter had no requirement to shoot the s/g; he unfortunately acted without direct supervision and de-cocked the gun.

 

Safety is safety and a live round under the hammer is not subject to any interpretation. It is what it is and the rule is pretty simple.

 

Yeah, he could have pushed the button and ejected the round. A SXS could have simply opened the gun and dumped the live round. It happens all the time. But, the SXS shooter with hammers CAN NOT DE-COCK EITHER!

 

At a monthly he may just get a quiet talk. But, at a Annual, State or higher the call is the call. Protest it if you have a spare $50.

 

Sorry, but this is a simple call- SDQ. Bummer- take your long guns to the unloading table.

 

NEXT SHOOTER

 

 

+ 1

 

As I read this I was thinking of a response, and when I got to this one... could not have said it any better!

[Rio Brazos Kid]

YES...up to the point where the shooter has to ask the T/O how to clear his shotgun.

...as I stated previously...shooter should confirm that he is actually "under the direct supervision" of the T/O, either by inquiry or by statement.

 

 

Thank you Pale Wolf.

 

RBK