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BP subs in S&W


old roy

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Bought a 2001 S&W Schofeld (field?)few years back. Wanted to shoot it with an E-talian (Eye-talian?)Colt clone 1860 conversion. Use Black Powder substitutes. The Smith binds up in 3 or 4 shots. Can shoot 6 stages with colt clones... does any body know anyone who who knows the guy or gal that can shoot a modern S&W with BP substitutes? What are they using? Fantastic piece of steel...fun to shoot smokeless... be MORE fun smokey!

 

Much Oblidged,

 

Old Roy

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Bought a 2001 S&W Schofeld (field?)few years back. Wanted to shoot it with an E-talian (Eye-talian?)Colt clone 1860 conversion. Use Black Powder substitutes. The Smith binds up in 3 or 4 shots. Can shoot 6 stages with colt clones... does any body know anyone who who knows the guy or gal that can shoot a modern S&W with BP substitutes? What are they using? Fantastic piece of steel...fun to shoot smokeless... be MORE fun smokey!

 

Much Oblidged,

 

Old Roy

 

The S&W and the Italian clone Schofields were designed for smokeless powder. They lack an extension on the front of the cylinder known as a gas collar. As a consequence, the fouling from BP or the subs blows directly on the cylinder pin and they foul very quickly. Some people have had luck shooting bullets with LOTS of BP lube and can go a few stages between wiping the gun down. By and large, however, most people have had poor luck shooting anything but smokeless powder.

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Howdy

 

To expand on what Larsen said, When Uberti designed their version of the Schofield, nobody was making 45 Schofiled ammo anymore. So Uberti lengthened the cylinder to accept 45 Colt and 44-40 ammo. However they did not lengthen the frame a corresponding amount, so the gas collar at the front of the cylinder was shortened, in order to fit into the same size frame as the originals. This put the barrel/cylinder gap in the same plane as the end of the gas collar, allowing fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap to build up inside on the cylinder pin.

 

When S&W produced their new Schofield in 2000, even though it was chambered for the original 45 Schofield cartridge, in their infinite wisdom S&W decided to shorten the gas collar. That is the problem, fouling blasted past the collar.

 

I am fortunate enough to own an original S&W New Model Number Three, the last single action revolver S&W built on the Number Three top break frame. I put together a little photo essay a few weeks ago showing the details of why the original 19th Century Smiths could deal with Black Powder better than the modern versions. Compare the photos to your Schofield and perhaps everything will become clear.

 

Here is a link:

 

Link

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Howdy

 

To expand on what Larsen said, When Uberti designed their version of the Schofield, nobody was making 45 Schofiled ammo anymore. So Uberti lengthened the cylinder to accept 45 Colt and 44-40 ammo. However they did not lengthen the frame a corresponding amount, so the gas collar at the front of the cylinder was shortened, in order to fit into the same size frame as the originals. This put the barrel/cylinder gap in the same plane as the end of the gas collar, allowing fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap to build up inside on the cylinder pin.

 

When S&W produced their new Schofield in 2000, even though it was chambered for the original 45 Schofield cartridge, in their infinite wisdom S&W decided to shorten the gas collar. That is the problem, fouling blasted past the collar.

 

I am fortunate enough to own an original S&W New Model Number Three, the last single action revolver S&W built on the Number Three top break frame. I put together a little photo essay a few weeks ago showing the details of why the original 19th Century Smiths could deal with Black Powder better than the modern versions. Compare the photos to your Schofield and perhaps everything will become clear.

 

Here is a link:

 

Link

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All good info guys, thx. Driftwood, that link is a goldmine. Great info & pix. So, the bad news is I will not be shooting "smokey stuff" with this Smith. The good news is I need to get another long barreld pistol.... now, the 3 colt clones I have now are all Uberties, and they work fine with any BP sub and 'regular bullits'... if I want to match my 1860 44 Colt conversion with an "Open Top" do I understand that there is a choice between Uberti and ASM? And the Uberti is better with BP subs?

 

Wonder what this Smith is worth now? Could I sell it and get a new pistol & a new SXS?

 

Thx again, ALL, for the feed back.

 

Old Roy

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One more thing, if you will. Not that I will ever use them but what are BIG LUBE BULLETS? Is that a style or a name brand? Who has them? If I were to purchase non lubed bullets, what is, how do you make a BP sub lube? Is it worth it to go THAT route, or just buy the already lubed, Big Lube bullet?

 

Ever deeper in your debt,

 

Likes to shoot smokey, Old Roy

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ASM has been out of business for years and their open tops were very spotty on quality. Unless you are a machinist and are prepared to deal with potential problems, skip the ASMs. Big Lube is a trade mark. However, most people use the term generically for any bullet that has large, deep, or numerous lube grooves. Bottom line is modern bullets are made for hard crayon lube and generally have shallow, narrow grooves or to few grooves to hold enough BP lube.

 

http://www.biglube.com/

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All good info guys, thx. Driftwood, that link is a goldmine. Great info & pix. So, the bad news is I will not be shooting "smokey stuff" with this Smith. The good news is I need to get another long barreld pistol.... now, the 3 colt clones I have now are all Uberties, and they work fine with any BP sub and 'regular bullits'... if I want to match my 1860 44 Colt conversion with an "Open Top" do I understand that there is a choice between Uberti and ASM? And the Uberti is better with BP subs?

 

Wonder what this Smith is worth now? Could I sell it and get a new pistol & a new SXS?

 

Thx again, ALL, for the feed back.

 

Old Roy

Howdy Roy. Open tops are great for shooting BP and subs and I've put a lot of rounds through mine. If you're buying them new, plan on having them worked over by a good smith. Some work fine out of the box, others don't. Mine didn't, but they've been great since being worked on by Alan Harton about 2 years ago.

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Howdy Roy. Open tops are great for shooting BP and subs and I've put a lot of rounds through mine. If you're buying them new, plan on having them worked over by a good smith. Some work fine out of the box, others don't. Mine didn't, but they've been great since being worked on by Alan Harton about 2 years ago.

 

 

Thx, Slim. Now do you mean THE 1871 OPEN TOP or any Colt conversion (51 Navy, 60 Army)? Does any 1 importer have a better gun than the others, to your knowledge? And re the 'slick em up work', 1 1873 Uberti clone was so bad, it would not even lock up safely....bullets were tumbling through paper targets. Looked like, inside, the last couple cuts on the mill never got finished. The bolt would not lock up. A Monday gun or 'shift change... this was 10 years ago. I hope they are better now, especially for the big prices now!

 

Thx for the help

 

Roy

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It is my understanding that those few Uberti Schofields that do work with smokermore are not common and the S&W made repros that will work are non existent. I have a pair of the long barl Uberti clones with consecutive serial numbers that work well with the proper loads of substitute bp, I can easily make six stages and use no bullet lube at all. I was even looking into buying a second set of barls in a shorter length to add on but was told it would probably not work with bp after the change. I think it is a hit or miss deal as I purchased a 44-40 version and nothing has worked on it, three or four rounds and it is jammed tight.

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Does any 1 importer have a better gun than the others, to your knowledge?

Thx for the help

 

Roy

 

Does one Chevy dealer have a better Chevy than another Chevy dealer? No. A Uberti is a Uberti is a Uberti regardless of importer.

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Thx, Slim. Now do you mean THE 1871 OPEN TOP or any Colt conversion (51 Navy, 60 Army)? Does any 1 importer have a better gun than the others, to your knowledge? And re the 'slick em up work', 1 1873 Uberti clone was so bad, it would not even lock up safely....bullets were tumbling through paper targets. Looked like, inside, the last couple cuts on the mill never got finished. The bolt would not lock up. A Monday gun or 'shift change... this was 10 years ago. I hope they are better now, especially for the big prices now!

 

Thx for the help

 

Roy

Howdy Roy. I got the 1871-1872 Open Tops with Navy grips from Taylors in .45 caliber (link below). Perhaps others with experience can chime in regarding them in .44-40 cal. It's my understanding that some manufacturers have trouble getting the chamber throats right in pistols of that caliber.

 

You might also consider the Richards-Mason conversions. The difference between the types is the OT uses a single-piece cylinder like the "Peacemaker", where the R-M is a two piece affair with a conversion ring and integral loading gate attached to the back of the cylinder. The OT loading gate is built into the recoil shield, same as the "Peacemaker".

 

As Larsen said, all Ubertis are the same, regardless of importer.

 

Taylor's Link

 

Good luck!

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...So Uberti lengthened the cylinder to accept 45 Colt and 44-40 ammo. However they did not lengthen the frame a corresponding amount, so the gas collar at the front of the cylinder was shortened, in order to fit into the same size frame as the originals. This put the barrel/cylinder gap in the same plane as the end of the gas collar, allowing fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap to build up inside on the cylinder pin.

 

When S&W produced their new Schofield in 2000, even though it was chambered for the original 45 Schofield cartridge, in their infinite wisdom S&W decided to shorten the gas collar. That is the problem, fouling blasted past the collar...

Guessing, maybe modern engineers were more worried about smokeless shooters complaining about gas cutting of the gas collar, than of BP shooters complaining of fouling.

 

(Correct answer to my following question: "Sure, it will work! Go buy a Schofield, have it modified, and report back on the results!")

Question: Could you modify a modern made #3 or Schofield to have another gas collar arrangement?

- Relieve the space between barrel and hinge to accept slightly longer gas collar.

- Ream current cylinder to remove current gas collar, and to accept new cylinder sleeve/gas collar.

- Press new cylinder sleeve/gas collar tube into cylinder.

 

Is there an engineering reason that would prevent a "BP collar" from working on a modern pistol? Given what some hombres are willing to spend on slicking up rifles and revolvers, it would not seem all that much machining to make happen.

 

Even my H&R "Sportsman" top-break .22 made in the 1930's has a gas collar. No problems with "dirty" .22 ammo gumming up the works.

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Howdy Roy. I got the 1871-1872 Open Tops with Navy grips from Taylors in .45 caliber (link below). Perhaps others with experience can chime in regarding them in .44-40 cal. It's my understanding that some manufacturers have trouble getting the chamber throats right in pistols of that caliber.

 

You might also consider the Richards-Mason conversions. The difference between the types is the OT uses a single-piece cylinder like the "Peacemaker", where the R-M is a two piece affair with a conversion ring and integral loading gate attached to the back of the cylinder. The OT loading gate is built into the recoil shield, same as the "Peacemaker".

 

As Larsen said, all Ubertis are the same, regardless of importer.

 

Taylor's Link

 

Good luck!

 

 

Slim, I had the impression from some ads that some 'slicked em up' here in America, after gettin them from Uberti, before sending them out. Have seen what appears to be couple hunred bucks diff in retail prices? Not true?

 

Best, OR

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Slim, I had the impression from some ads that some 'slicked em up' here in America, after gettin them from Uberti, before sending them out. Have seen what appears to be couple hunred bucks diff in retail prices? Not true?

 

Best, OR

Howdy Roy. Not sure what ads you've seen, but unlike the "Peacemaker" guns, I'm not aware of anyone selling new Open Tops or conversions new and already slicked up. That doesn't mean there aren't any, I just don't know who they are. Having said that, I'm sure you can purchase a pair and have them sent by the importer directly to a gunsmith like Alan Harton, Jimmy Spurs, Longhunter, Cody Conagher etc. They can do the work and send them to your local FFL. You might be able to have the shop purchase the guns directly, but there may be a small markup for the convenience.

 

An action job will run in the neighborhood of $150 per gun. However, it's best to contact the shop first find out what they do and at what price.

 

Good luck!

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Slowhand: if 3 or 4 rounds ties up your gun you are doing something WAY wrong. My 44-40 Uberti Schofield can go 4 stages just fine, as well as my Uberti 73 clones, from 4 3/4" barrels up to both the 7.5" barrels versions. But then I use bullets with lots of lube and REAL BP. If I can shoot my Colt 45 auto with BP and my lube I can't see any reason you can't do the same with a revolver.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c262/mwhyte123/BPWB.jpg

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Guessing, maybe modern engineers were more worried about smokeless shooters complaining about gas cutting of the gas collar, than of BP shooters complaining of fouling.

 

(Correct answer to my following question: "Sure, it will work! Go buy a Schofield, have it modified, and report back on the results!")

Question: Could you modify a modern made #3 or Schofield to have another gas collar arrangement?

- Relieve the space between barrel and hinge to accept slightly longer gas collar.

- Ream current cylinder to remove current gas collar, and to accept new cylinder sleeve/gas collar.

- Press new cylinder sleeve/gas collar tube into cylinder.

 

Is there an engineering reason that would prevent a "BP collar" from working on a modern pistol? Given what some hombres are willing to spend on slicking up rifles and revolvers, it would not seem all that much machining to make happen.

 

Even my H&R "Sportsman" top-break .22 made in the 1930's has a gas collar. No problems with "dirty" .22 ammo gumming up the works.

The S&W guns are more complex to manufacture than the Colts. Uberti cut some corners to keep the manufacturing cost down and built a one-size-fits-all frame and cylinder which has to accept something as large as .45 cal . All they have to do to accommodate the different calibers is drill the appropriate sized holes.

 

The original S&Ws were actually built to a more exacting standard than today's replica because the cost of labor back then was much cheaper. Those guns required a lot of hand fitting. Producing a gun like that today would make them unaffordable to most of the market that wants one.

 

As for altering the gun as suggested, the cost would be prohibitive.

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Howdy Roy. Not sure what ads you've seen, but unlike the "Peacemaker" guns, I'm not aware of anyone selling new Open Tops or conversions new and already slicked up. That doesn't mean there aren't any, I just don't know who they are. Having said that, I'm sure you can purchase a pair and have them sent by the importer directly to a gunsmith like Alan Harton, Jimmy Spurs, Longhunter, Cody Conagher etc. They can do the work and send them to your local FFL. You might be able to have the shop purchase the guns directly, but there may be a small markup for the convenience.

 

An action job will run in the neighborhood of $150 per gun. However, it's best to contact the shop first find out what they do and at what price.

 

Good luck!

 

Slim. Am finding about $150 diff in prices on Open Tops. Just wondered if the company that says they have "the finest" and charge 150 more bucks are 'tweeking' them b/4 shipment to consumer.

 

It's all got me thinkin...

 

Thx, Old roy

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roy,

I shoot my model three 44 Russians, (Ubertis) in Frontier Cartridge ocasionally. I don't do anything special but I do shoot real black powder, FFFg to be exact. It is cheaper and easier to clean than subs, and doesn't foul as much, (for me). I do use a Wonder Wad over the powder which keeps any fouling soft. I shot them at a major ten stage match last fall and only sprayed a little Ballistol on them after the fifth stage.

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Slim. Am finding about $150 diff in prices on Open Tops. Just wondered if the company that says they have "the finest" and charge 150 more bucks are 'tweeking' them b/4 shipment to consumer.

 

It's all got me thinkin...

 

Thx, Old roy

Nope, they just charge more for the same product. The only difference between an Uberti sold by different importers is the name stamped on the barrel.

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