Doc Windshadow Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 long bull barrel .22LR Ballard pictures seen here # 34787 http://gallery.me.com/windshadow#100125 The scope is an old Lyman 15x with 1/4 mil dot the gun has 32" bull barrel and is a tac driver with standard vel Eley match ammo and a shotgun with high vel ammo like CCI, I dated the scope to the 1920s don't know when the action left the Marlin plant the very high cheek piece stock makes it very pleasant to shoot and it has the external extractor. the blueing/browning on the bull barrel has a sort of violet cast the general look of it is what made me buy it back in the early 70s. Good case color still on the lever and the butt plate; the action as you can see is in the white I do not know what it was when made. I think it likely that the gun as it now sits was made in the 1920s by a good smith as there are no markings on the barrel and I think the barrel may have come from another gun but I would like to know when the action left the factory the last patent date on the receiver iFebruary . 9 . 1875 . Also seen here is a pistol with no # http://gallery.me.com/windshadow#100031 it is marked FRONTIER ARMY 44 . W.C.F on the top of the barrel next to the frame is BELGIUM in small caps there is no rear sight at all and the barrel has an odd tear drop shape whit the tpp flattened it has about 95%+ nickel plate remaining and "artistic" Hard rubber grips the lanyard ring from the bottom of the but is missing and the trigger return spring is broken it shoot fine with Black powder 44-40 ammo and I wondered if any further info is available? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Doc, dating Marlin - Ballards is nowhere on the Internet. The best reference is - Shot Rifles & Actions by Frank de Haas which is out of print. It lists the production dates by the successive ownership of the companies. Your best bet is to put a post on the Marlin Collectors Assoc ... http://www.marlin-collectors.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=6 and asking someone there who has the book to do a look up based on the serial number range for your rifle. Possibly a Wire member has the book also and may be of help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethan Cord Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Doc, Dixie Gun Works catalog used to have alot of serial number dating info in the back. Good info on proof marks too. Ethan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Windshadow Posted March 15, 2011 Author Share Posted March 15, 2011 Thanks Guys I will try the web site no luck with the copy to hand of the Dixie catalog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August West, SASS #45079 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 1890, I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olen Rugged Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 In-so-far as I can tell there is no on-line listing. The only reference is an out of print publication and no one has had the idea of doing a scan with proper attribution. The Marlin collectors site suggests a letter to the Cody museum, where (for a small fee) they can do the research and get back to you. Olen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickahominy Charlie Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Ok, now that you've got some on topic answers, I have to post what came to mind when I first saw the topic heading.... "You're dating a guy named Marlin Ballard?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Hombre #23212 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 WOW!! what beautiful rifle!! From Frank de Haas's book SS rifles and Actions. "The first of the Marlin Ballard actions were usually marked on the left side J M Marlin. Ballard's patent Nov 5 1861". "In 1881 the Marlin firm was incorporated and the name changed and the actions thereafter were stamped... Marlin Fire Arms Co. New Haven CT.USA Ballard's patent Nov 5 1861". Also... "It is generally believed that the last Marlin Ballard was made in about 1888 or 1889 and to my knowledge there is no record of how many were produced". From the book...actions were given serial numbers stamped on the lower front part of the receiver and if original, on the tang, on each half of the breech block and sometimes on the finger lever. Great book and a great rifle!! Hope this helps. BH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Windshadow Posted March 15, 2011 Author Share Posted March 15, 2011 Ok, now that you've got some on topic answers, I have to post what came to mind when I first saw the topic heading.... "You're dating a guy named Marlin Ballard?" I have noticed 3 post titles of the "could be misunderstood sort) that I could have commented on in the last few days (one that still springs to mind wanted to know if anyone had shot some clueless person in a robe trying to convert lead to Gold http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=166040 ) but showing the extreem restraint that I am well know for I forbare to do so Cheers Windy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Windshadow Posted March 15, 2011 Author Share Posted March 15, 2011 1890, I believe. Thanks AW given what a Cody letter costs I think that is close enough... need to pinch pennies this year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Hand Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 The pistol is a Belgin copy of the Webley Frontier Holster Model which was displayed in the 1895 Montgomery Ward catalog. There is a picture and write up about it on page 79 of "The British Bulldog Revolver" by George Layman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Windshadow Posted March 16, 2011 Author Share Posted March 16, 2011 WOW!! what beautiful rifle!! From Frank de Haas's book SS rifles and Actions. "The first of the Marlin Ballard actions were usually marked on the left side J M Marlin. Ballard's patent Nov 5 1861". "In 1881 the Marlin firm was incorporated and the name changed and the actions thereafter were stamped... Marlin Fire Arms Co. New Haven CT.USA Ballard's patent Nov 5 1861". Also... "It is generally believed that the last Marlin Ballard was made in about 1888 or 1889 and to my knowledge there is no record of how many were produced". From the book...actions were given serial numbers stamped on the lower front part of the receiver and if original, on the tang, on each half of the breech block and sometimes on the finger lever. Great book and a great rifle!! Hope this helps. BH Thanks for the great info! and for liking the gun. when did that type of stock with the high cheek become fashionable? the rifle # is in pencil under the butt plate I wonder if it could be original I guess it could have had a Malcolm type scope in say 1888 the cheek piece is just right to put my eye in the right spot for the scope interesting that there is the extra line with the 1875 patent date above the 1861 line I am going to see if I can find that 1875 patent in the google patent search Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Windshadow Posted March 16, 2011 Author Share Posted March 16, 2011 The pistol is a Belgin copy of the Webley Frontier Holster Model which was displayed in the 1895 Montgomery Ward catalog. There is a picture and write up about it on page 79 of "The British Bulldog Revolver" by George Layman. Thanks... I guess as a copy of the Webley it is not worth much... but it is good for style points don't you think? anyone having any tips on cleaning it up with out messing up the patina of the nickel? Cheers Windy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Four-Eyed Buck,SASS #14795 Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Doc, If you get on Marlin Collectors, Get ahold of Regneir( SP?). He does have a copy of the existing records up to 1906, you rifle should be in there.......Buck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Hombre #23212 Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Thanks for the great info! and for liking the gun. when did that type of stock with the high cheek become fashionable? the rifle # is in pencil under the butt plate I wonder if it could be original I guess it could have had a Malcolm type scope in say 1888 the cheek piece is just right to put my eye in the right spot for the scope interesting that there is the extra line with the 1875 patent date above the 1861 line I am going to see if I can find that 1875 patent in the google patent search Ballard made rifles from 1861 thru 1873 and went out of business. The patent owner found J M Marlin to build rifles in 1875. Marlin redesigned and re-patented some changes of the action before production. Hence the 1875 dating. Google Schuetzen Rifles, yours looks like a variation set-up for scope use, but more modern. BH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Windshadow Posted March 16, 2011 Author Share Posted March 16, 2011 Ballard made rifles from 1861 thru 1873 and went out of business. The patent owner found J M Marlin to build rifles in 1875. Marlin redesigned and re-patented some changes of the action before production. Hence the 1875 dating. Google Schuetzen Rifles, yours looks like a variation set-up for scope use, but more modern. BH thanks again BH the depth and breadth of knowledge here on the Wire is truly amazing Cheers Windy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 "The first of the Marlin Ballard actions were usually marked on the left side J M Marlin. Ballard's patent Nov 5 1861"."In 1881 the Marlin firm was incorporated and the name changed and the actions thereafter were stamped... Marlin Fire Arms Co. New Haven CT.USA Ballard's patent Nov 5 1861". Doc, the project one of mine that I told you about is a stamped J M Marlin. Based on the serial number 6xxx, that ballparks it about 1874. It's been an extensive rebuild: * rust * new liner to replace the sewer pipe bore * plumb brown - wanted to case harden the action but afraid the cast iron would crack * all new screws, link, 2 part cylinder extractor, firing pin, period correct vernier and raised the dings of the wood It will be one of the 22's that will be shooting them black powder rounds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe LaFives #5481 Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 It would appear that your Ballard is a "Plain" No. 3 - a discription is found on page 140 of LTC William Brophy's Marlin Firearm's A History of the Guns and Company that made them. These were producted from 1876 to 1888. Brophy says that "Interspersed among the Marlin Model 1881 Repeating Rifle serial number records are a few Ballard serial numbers. The following list is all of the surviving factory records:" He then goes on to list a variety of SN all with dates in 1885 and of models No 5 and No 6. A No. 3 was their .22 cal version of the No 2 (which is what I thought it was at first) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jittery Jim Jonah, SASS #64913L Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 long bull barrel .22LR Ballard pictures seen here # 34787 http://gallery.me.com/windshadow#100125 The scope is an old Lyman 15x with 1/4 mil dot the gun has 32" bull barrel and is a tac driver with standard vel Eley match ammo and a shotgun with high vel ammo like CCI, I dated the scope to the 1920s don't know when the action left the Marlin plant the very high cheek piece stock makes it very pleasant to shoot and it has the external extractor. the blueing/browning on the bull barrel has a sort of violet cast the general look of it is what made me buy it back in the early 70s. Good case color still on the lever and the butt plate; the action as you can see is in the white I do not know what it was when made. I think it likely that the gun as it now sits was made in the 1920s by a good smith as there are no markings on the barrel and I think the barrel may have come from another gun but I would like to know when the action left the factory the last patent date on the receiver iFebruary . 9 . 1875 . Also seen here is a pistol with no # http://gallery.me.com/windshadow#100031 it is marked FRONTIER ARMY 44 . W.C.F on the top of the barrel next to the frame is BELGIUM in small caps there is no rear sight at all and the barrel has an odd tear drop shape whit the tpp flattened it has about 95%+ nickel plate remaining and "artistic" Hard rubber grips the lanyard ring from the bottom of the but is missing and the trigger return spring is broken it shoot fine with Black powder 44-40 ammo and I wondered if any further info is available? Go here: Marlin manufacture dates If the SN# is the one you posted it was made in 1890, at least the barrel. For more info go here: Marlin Collectors forum JJJ-D :ph34r: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellowhouse Sam # 25171 Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Might want to lay off the high speed ammo and stick to standard velocity which it was designed to handle. Hate to see you have something crack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Windshadow Posted March 16, 2011 Author Share Posted March 16, 2011 Might want to lay off the high speed ammo and stick to standard velocity which it was designed to handle. Hate to see you have something crack. When I first got it I bought about 20 different .22 LR types to find out what it liked best and very quickly found that the high speed stuff like the CCI created a shotgun like pattern on the target and I never played with it again; it shoots almost all standard and sub sonic .22 LR very well with the exception of some WOLF that bought back in the 90s when it first turned up in the USW market but the ELEY target (yes the very expensive stuff) is what it likes best from a rest on a 50 year indoor range it cuts cloverleaf one hole groups with that stuff. Thanks everyone for your finding out so much info do you think the stock could be original? the forend just seen in the Serial # photo is wide and flat bottomed and the Serial number is on the inside of the butt plate and also on the wood under the plate in pencil. but I have never seen another stock quite like it it is not as swoopy as the real Schuetzen rifles I have seen though(and of course they have been mostly in .32 or so in size and not .22 rimfire) the Schuetzen also have the fancy cast hook butt plates for off hand work and this seems to have bee meant as a bench rest gun. Cheers Windy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tennessee Stud, SASS# 43634 Life Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Dating a Marlin Ballard Be careful... and from my experience... don't just take Marlin's word that she is "18". ts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Windshadow Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 Be careful... and from my experience... don't just take Marlin's word that she is "18". ts welll given that the experts here seem to be settling on a DOB of the late 1880s I think at 120+ I should be OK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.