Accepting a shipment from a Non-FFL?

[July Smith]

What is the reluctance many FFLs have with accepting shipments from individuals?  Is this a local or state law thing?  Or does receiving a shipment from an individual add extra paper work at the FFLs end?  I am always sure to include a copy of my DL, properly package the item, double check the shipping address through the ATF's ez-check system, and require and adult signature.

[Jim Brown]

The FFL that receives for me will accept from individual.

Some of the Problems he has seen are:

No Drivers license with shipment

does not forward tracking info when shipped

does not have signature required on shipment.

Firearm shipped to PO Box vice business address.

 

He has had firearms dropped off with no notice- sees on ring camera and picks up or finds on porch when he gets home

 

Each of these are a problem he has to deal with- I believe that is why some FFL's will not receive from individual.

 

 

 

[July Smith]

So basically incompetent individuals not knowing what they are doing when it comes to shipping?  I guess I can understand that...  Maybe it has just been my experience but the worst packaging jobs I have ever seen were from an FFL to my local FFL.  I once ordered a Mauser from an online dealer.  The shipping FFL felt the need to roll the rifle up in old carpet and then stick the whole thing in an old water heater box.  Box was monstrously oversized and the rifle was beat to heck on arrival.  I also had an FFL ship me a handgun in nothing other than USPS padded envelope.        

[Three Foot Johnson]

What happens if...

 

An FFL says they won't accept a shipment from an individual, and the individual boxes it up with a copy of his driver license and sends it anyway, thinking, "What are they going to do, unpack it, log it in, pack it back up again, log it back out, and spend $45 to ship it back to me?"

[sassnetguy50]

37 minutes ago, Three Foot Johnson said:

What happens if...

 

An FFL says they won't accept a shipment from an individual, and the individual boxes it up with a copy of his driver license and sends it anyway, thinking, "What are they going to do, unpack it, log it in, pack it back up again, log it back out, and spend $45 to ship it back to me?"

A dealer can refuse delivery of a package that is not a recognized sender at not cost and no paperwork. 

[Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728]

If a dealer says they only accept from an FFL and an individual decides to ship firearms to them anyway, then the dealer can call ATF and have them pick up shipment.  Now mister "I don't care what your policy is, I'll do what I want" can then deal with ATF.  

[Three Foot Johnson]

1 hour ago, sassnetguy50 said:

A dealer can refuse delivery of a package that is not a recognized sender at not cost and no paperwork. 

Well, yeah, anybody can refuse delivery of a package or letter, unless they get cornered by a process server maybe. 

 

If you've already signed for it though, then what? Either accept it with the sender's DL information and proceed, or do the acquisition/disposition, box it up and send it back, or call your friendly neighborhood ATF branch office as LSJ suggested, I guess.

[John Kloehr]

I am not an FFL. As an observer, my experience includes:

 

An FFL that does accept from individuals just had an interesting problem. The sender paperwork swapped who it was from and who it was for... Now what to do.

 

Also, consider an individual sends a firearm to an FFL. FFL accepts the firearm shipment. Recipient comes in to pick it up and fails the background check. Now it got more complicated, can not send it back to the individual, only to an FFL; but no FFL is identified by the sender.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

46 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

Also, consider an individual sends a firearm to an FFL. FFL accepts the firearm shipment. Recipient comes in to pick it up and fails the background check. Now it got more complicated, can not send it back to the individual, only to an FFL; but no FFL is identified by the sender.

We have had this happen:

a) The purchaser contacts the seller and makes their arrangements and agreement for refund; shipping costs and what FFL will be receiving it from us.

b) The purchaser asks us to retain it until they can rectify whatever issue got their BG check denied.   No issue to us as we have no investment in the item.

c) The purchaser sells to us or consigns the item for sale in our shop.

 

It really is not a big deal and an extremely rare occurrence - certainly not reason enough FOR US to deny accepting transfers from individuals.

[Tyrel Cody]

1 hour ago, John Kloehr said:

Now it got more complicated, can not send it back to the individual, only to an FFL; but no FFL is identified by the sender.

 

No it didn't.  They can still send it directly back to the seller since it hasn't been transferred it's still their's.  No different than a gunsmith working on your guns, they can be shipped directly back to you.

 

 

[John Kloehr]

1 hour ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

We have had this happen:

a) The purchaser contacts the seller and makes their arrangements and agreement for refund; shipping costs and what FFL will be receiving it from us.

b) The purchaser asks us to retain it until they can rectify whatever issue got their BG check denied.   No issue to us as we have no investment in the item.

c) The purchaser sells to us or consigns the item for sale in our shop.

 

It really is not a big deal and an extremely rare occurrence - certainly not reason enough FOR US to deny accepting transfers from individuals.

 

1 hour ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

No it didn't.  They can still send it directly back to the seller since it hasn't been transferred it's still their's.  No different than a gunsmith working on your guns, they can be shipped directly back to you.

 

 

OK, was just my understanding.

 

I do think providing a transfer for $10 (and another $10 for the background check) is one heck of a public service.

[Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728]

Tyrel, I have a question for you.  If the receiving FFL does NOT do gunsmithing and logs the gun into his standard incoming/outgoing ATF log book, how can he ship and log out a gun to a private party?

Creeker, please also answer this question.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Just now, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

Tyrel, I have a question for you.  If the receiving FFL does NOT do gunsmithing and logs the gun into his standard incoming/outgoing ATF log book, how can he ship and log out a gun to a private party?

Creeker, please also answer this question.

After the firearm is logged into our books - it is only leaving our books by going to another FFL or to a private party with a corresponding 4473 form and BG check if applicable.

 

We are not gunsmiths or a manufacturer (different categories of FFL) and WE cannot return or deliver a firearm to an individual without certain steps.

"Ownership" of the firearm is immaterial - there are required steps for a seller or pawnbroker to document the possession and transfer in and out of the A & D (acquisition and disposition) book.

 

This is why a firearm consigned for sale in my shop that the "owner" decides they wish to retrieve back out for themselves is STILL subject to a 4473 form completion and a background check if applicable (if the owner does not possess a NICS background check exemption i.e. concealed weapons permit).

 

Or another example would be a firearm pawned by a customer - the firearm is logged into the pawnbrokers A&D (understanding that the firearms "ownership" is still held by the pawn customer) but if the pawn customer comes back to redeem their firearm - they still must complete a 4473 form and BG check as required.

 

A FFL "may" legally void a line in their A & D book but that is only for error, book damage or illegible entry and the corresponding replacement entry must be noted for audit and review purposes.

There is no "approved" provision for "whoopsie", someone changed their mind. 

Or couldn't pass a BG check.

 

I have heard of dealers that try to work around these issues by not logging the transfer gun until after they know the BG check is cleared - but that can be a violation of the time requirement to log a gun into the A&D after receipt - AND all background checks are logged; I have had inspectors request to see the 4473 that corresponds with a failed BG check as well as check the A&D entry for the listed firearm to look for hinky behavior.

[Tyrel Cody]

37 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

After the firearm is logged into our books - it is only leaving our books by going to another FFL or to a private party with a corresponding 4473 form and BG check if applicable.

 

We are not gunsmiths or a manufacturer (different categories of FFL) and WE cannot return or deliver a firearm to an individual without certain steps.

"Ownership" of the firearm is immaterial - there are required steps for a seller or pawnbroker to document the possession and transfer in and out of the A & D (acquisition and disposition) book.

 

This is why a firearm consigned for sale in my shop that the "owner" decides they wish to retrieve back out for themselves is STILL subject to a 4473 form completion and a background check if applicable (if the owner does not possess a NICS background check exemption i.e. concealed weapons permit).

 

Or another example would be a firearm pawned by a customer - the firearm is logged into the pawnbrokers A&D (understanding that the firearms "ownership" is still held by the pawn customer) but if the pawn customer comes back to redeem their firearm - they still must complete a 4473 form and BG check as required.

 

A FFL "may" legally void a line in their A & D book but that is only for error, book damage or illegible entry and the corresponding replacement entry must be noted for audit and review purposes.

There is no "approved" provision for "whoopsie", someone changed their mind. 

Or couldn't pass a BG check.

 

I have heard of dealers that try to work around these issues by not logging the transfer gun until after they know the BG check is cleared - but that can be a violation of the time requirement to log a gun into the A&D after receipt - AND all background checks are logged; I have had inspectors request to see the 4473 that corresponds with a failed BG check as well as check the A&D entry for the listed firearm to look for hinky behavior.

 

Fair enough, I was certainly mistaken on that part. I do know that I have had my guns shipped directly to me from gunsmiths; no background needed. Bad assumption on my part for the other.